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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 19879 times) previous topic - next topic

Dean W, Saunt Taunga (+ 2 Hidden) and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1300
Actual individuals who actually lived and have actual DNA fit nicely into the OoA phylogeny.  If actual individuals who actually lived and have actual DNA don't fit into Doug's proposed alternative OoME phylogeny, whatever it is, that's a problem for him.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1301
I will be leaving this specific aspect of the subject shortly.
After essentially admitting that all available evidence contradicts your ideas, I can't say I blame you.

Get back to us when you actually have some genomic data that supports your BS (instead of iimagining there might be).
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1302
We can start with that. So you do admit that L0 is, explicitly, more parsimonious - even if you only think it is a "tiny amount".

Right?
I already agreed to that and it is a tiny amount. Using Middle East Neanderthals could easily overwhelm that.

I hadn't understood any of your posts as agreement. That's a good start. Do you further agree that demonstrating that parsimony requires no assumption whatsoever of out-of-Africa?
Please respond to the fact that the chart (the study) does not include any Middle East Neanderthals.
Anyone?
People might find it interesting to look at the Neanderthals that are included in the study. FM865411 is in Russia and I believe the others are in Europe. Right away you see the large difference between them.
We would see also a large difference between Middle East Neanderthals and other Neanderthals.
Does everybody get it? Anyone?
There might be a big difference, favoring your ideas, or not favoring them. Or the difference could be small. I'll go with the most parsimonious, most likely, conclusion based on the date we have.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1303
I'm afraid I have to eat some crow.  In southwestern Syria, near the Lebanese border, archaeologists excavating dwellings from the early Aramaean period (circa 1100 BC) accidentally caused the floor of a house to collapse, revealing a cave beneath.  A skeleton was recovered with Neandertal features.  Its mtDNA has been sequenced and is now in the NCBI database, KC982541.  I BLASTED it with some other individuals I'd done before, and the results were stunning.

Doug, I stand corrected.


So an L3 woman and a Neanderthal man got friendly (or not, as the case may be) and had children with Neandertal features and L3 mtDNA.
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:25:33 AM by Saunt Taunga

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1304
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:27:22 AM by socrates1

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1305
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
Also worth repeating is that neither alternative has Homo Sapiens originating in the Middle East.
Alternative C, has L3 originating in the Middle East, and rationalizes the presence of L3 in Africa with gene flow.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1306
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
When L3 had entered Africa did it simply remain L3 or did it evolve other L haplogroups?
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 07:00:10 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1307
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00255-3
Quote
Current models, predating the recognition of L0 as sister to L1′5,9, 10 suggest that the contemporary sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool is the result of an early expansion of modern humans from their homeland, often suggested to be East Africa, to most of the African continent by exclusively L1 Hg clades, before being overwhelmed by a later expansion wave of L2 and L3 clades dated to 60,000-80,000 ybp.11, 1


For reference

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1308
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00255-3
Quote
Current models, predating the recognition of L0 as sister to L1′5,9, 10 suggest that the contemporary sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool is the result of an early expansion of modern humans from their homeland, often suggested to be East Africa, to most of the African continent by exclusively L1 Hg clades, before being overwhelmed by a later expansion wave of L2 and L3 clades dated to 60,000-80,000 ybp.11, 1

Looks like the African L haplogroups were the result of a expansion wave of L2 and L3 clades from East Africa into the rest of Africa dated to 60,000-80,000 ybp
Here is another reference to the expansion of L3 into the rest of Africa.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693320/pdf/15101581.pdf
Quote
About 60-80 ka, a renewed expansion repopulated
Africa with L2 and L3 mtDNA types
(Watson et al. 1997),
whereas the original L1 types eventually became a
minority almost everywhere, except in the ancestors of
Khoisan (Bushmen) and Biaka (West Pygmies).

  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 07:57:37 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1309
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/359/1442/255.short
Quote
This paper summarizes our interpretation of the genetic findings, covering the initial and modest spread of humans within Africa more than 100 ka, the striking re-expansion within Africa 60-80 ka, leading ultimately to the out-of-Africa migration of a single, small group which settled in Australia, Eurasia and America during windows of opportunity at least partly dictated by fluctuations in sea-levels and climatic conditions.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1310
It looks like all the references above are basically all based on the 1997 study.
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(07)64333-X
But the idea of a re-expansion does not seem to be mentioned in any current or recent literature. I conclude conservatively that this re-expansion is no longer considered credible.
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:41:48 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1311
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322092990_Skhul_lithic_technology_and_the_dispersal_of_Homo_sapiens_into_Southwest_Asia
Quote
On the other hand long-term population continuity through several wet and dry climatic
cycles in the Levant has also been proposed. In this view, the
Skhul and Qafzeh hominins may have evolved from indigenous
Middle Pleistocene populations in southwest Asia,
as perhaps
indicated by findings from sites such as Qesem Cave (Hershkovitz
et al., 2011; Freidline et al., 2012).
Support for the idea that the humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals.
So there is support for the idea that humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 originated in the Middle East *
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 migrated from the Middle East into Africa*
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 fanned out into Africa.**

Those are fundamental ideas of the Out of the Middle East theory.


*
 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/13/233502

**
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00255-3
and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693320/pdf/15101581.pdf


I overlooked another supported idea. See the bolded part above.

Most of this support came out since the last time I was discussing this topic here.
In order to appreciate the significance of the fanning of L3 into Africa one must have already come to see that the claimed lineage of L haplogroups according to the Out of Africa theory is not supported. The claimed lineage of those L haplogroups is fantasy. I have covered that a number of times already.


This may need to be updated if there is no credible published reference to a re-expansion.
That does not mean that L3 did not fan out into Africa. Just that the reference to re-expansion is not a reference for that. There was no RE-expansion. Just an expansion.
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 09:05:06 AM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1312
Updated summary:
There is support for the idea that the first humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals *
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 originated in the Middle East **
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 migrated from the Middle East into Africa**

Those are some of the fundamental ideas of the Out of the Middle East theory.

*
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322092990_Skhul_lithic_technology_and_the_dispersal_of_Homo_sapiens_into_Southwest_Asia

**
 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/13/233502


  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1313
Updated summary:
There is support for the idea that the first humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals *

Updated reality check:

No. There isn't.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1314
Updated summary:
There is support for the idea that the first humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals *
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 originated in the Middle East **
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 migrated from the Middle East into Africa**

Those are some of the fundamental ideas of the Out of the Middle East theory.

*
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322092990_Skhul_lithic_technology_and_the_dispersal_of_Homo_sapiens_into_Southwest_Asia

**
 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/13/233502



That's nice dear.  Another piece of pie?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1315
For future reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)
Quote
The Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor for the L3 lineage has also recently been estimated to be between 58,900 and 70,200 years ago, around the time as and associated with the Out-of-Africa expansion of the ancestors of non-African modern humans from Eastern Africa into Eurasia around 70,000 years ago, and also with a similar expansion within Africa from the East of the continent.[2]

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/3/915/1005941
Quote
Since the emergence of Homo sapiens 150-200 thousand years (ka) ago, the species is thought to have lived in small scattered populations and been at risk of extinction for much of its existence (Newman 1995; Willoughby 2007). This low effective population size is reflected in deeper parts of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) tree of modern humans. Although the tree is highly starlike at shallower time depths, suggesting numerous episodes of rapid growth in the human population in the more recent past, it is only at a third of the time depth of the entire tree with the emergence of the L3 haplogroup that the first multifurcating node occurs (seven subbranches, including haplogroups M and N that encompass between them all the ancient diversity observed outside Africa) (Watson et al. 1997; Torroni et al. 2006; Behar et al. 2008). The explanation for this dramatic early population expansion after the appearance of L3 is unknown, but advances in technological or cognitive capacities and response to climatic change have been suggested (Klein 1992; Forster 2004; Mellars 2006; Scholz et al. 2007).
................
The population expansions after the emergence of haplogroup L3 most likely led not only to global colonization but also to range expansions within Africa. There is an increase in microlithic/Mode 5 (Later Stone Age or LSA) technologies in the archaeological record from ∼50 ka onward throughout Africa, but this is uneven and gradual at best for much of the continent (Phillipson 2005; Barham and Mitchell 2008).

  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 09:58:10 AM by socrates1

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1316
For future ignoring:

"We therefore conclude that an indigenous origin for L3 in Eastern Africa remains by far the most likely scenario".

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1317
For future reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)
Quote
The Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor for the L3 lineage has also recently been estimated to be between 58,900 and 70,200 years ago, around the time as and associated with the Out-of-Africa expansion of the ancestors of non-African modern humans from Eastern Africa into Eurasia around 70,000 years ago, and also with a similar expansion within Africa from the East of the continent.[2]

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/3/915/1005941
Quote
Since the emergence of Homo sapiens 150-200 thousand years (ka) ago, the species is thought to have lived in small scattered populations and been at risk of extinction for much of its existence (Newman 1995; Willoughby 2007). This low effective population size is reflected in deeper parts of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) tree of modern humans. Although the tree is highly starlike at shallower time depths, suggesting numerous episodes of rapid growth in the human population in the more recent past, it is only at a third of the time depth of the entire tree with the emergence of the L3 haplogroup that the first multifurcating node occurs (seven subbranches, including haplogroups M and N that encompass between them all the ancient diversity observed outside Africa) (Watson et al. 1997; Torroni et al. 2006; Behar et al. 2008). The explanation for this dramatic early population expansion after the appearance of L3 is unknown, but advances in technological or cognitive capacities and response to climatic change have been suggested (Klein 1992; Forster 2004; Mellars 2006; Scholz et al. 2007).
................
The population expansions after the emergence of haplogroup L3 most likely led not only to global colonization but also to range expansions within Africa. There is an increase in microlithic/Mode 5 (Later Stone Age or LSA) technologies in the archaeological record from ∼50 ka onward throughout Africa, but this is uneven and gradual at best for much of the continent (Phillipson 2005; Barham and Mitchell 2008).
Your first quoted paragraph and the emboldenized last sentence there in totally destroy your fantasy.
By "from the East of the continent", it's clear, from the context stated in the immediately prior phrase, "with a similar expansion within Africa", the authors are referring to the eastern areas of Africa. Their wording may be a bit odd, but that's what it says.

In other words, The Most Recent Common Ancestor for the L3 lineage is estimated to be between 58,900 and 70,200 years ago, which is well within the 70,000 ya date predicted for the Out-of-Africa expansion of both the ancestors of non-African modern humans from Eastern Africa into Eurasia and to within Africa.

That anyone who could tie their shoes but is not brain damaged (possible by the long term huffing of the fumes of Scrubbing Bubbles toilet cleansers would think otherwise is virtually impossible.

See, sucky, you are "special".
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1318
It looks like all the references above are basically all based on the 1997 study.
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(07)64333-X
But the idea of a re-expansion does not seem to be mentioned in any current or recent literature. I conclude conservatively that this re-expansion is no longer considered credible.

It seems that there has been recent support for an expansion of L3 in Africa. I will reinstate that into the list of aspects of the Out of the Middle East theory that have had some support. 

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1319
Updated summary:
There is support for the idea that the first humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals *
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 originated in the Middle East **
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 migrated from the Middle East into Africa**
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 fanned out into Africa.***

Those are basically all of the fundamental ideas of the Out of the Middle East theory.

*
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322092990_Skhul_lithic_technology_and_the_dispersal_of_Homo_sapiens_into_Southwest_Asia

**
 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/13/233502

***
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/3/915/1005941


  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1320
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
Would anyone care to acknowledge this study that strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1321
The re-expansion hypothesis certainly makes sense of the distributions, what with the most basal branch of L3 being Africans, just like all of the more basal branches down to L0.

  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:04:10 PM by Dean W

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1322
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
Would anyone care to acknowledge this study that strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.
Well it does not look like anyone will acknowledge this study. So be it. The study strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.
  • Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:18:20 PM by socrates1

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1323
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
Would anyone care to acknowledge this study that strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.
Well it does not look like anyone will acknowledge this study. So be it. The study strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.

Would you acknowledge my acknowledgment?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1324
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
Would anyone care to acknowledge this study that strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.
Well it does not look like anyone will acknowledge this study. So be it. The study strongly supports the idea that L3 emigrated from the Middle East INTO Africa and not the idea that L3 emigrated FROM Africa into the Middle East.
This means :
there is support for the idea that L3 originated in the Middle East **
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 migrated from the Middle East into Africa**


**
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
and
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf