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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 17980 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1350
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
People can ignore this - pretend it does not exist. But it still exists. You folks have no credibility.
Anyone willing to acknowledge that alternative C has the highest likelihood value? Higher than alternatives A and B?

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1351
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
People can ignore this - pretend it does not exist. But it still exists. You folks have no credibility.
Tell you what. I won't ignore it (I have no reason to, anyway) if you stop ignoring the position of L3 in the phylotree.

Oh, and that 2005 study credibly dating the Omo fossils ;)
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1352
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
People can ignore this - pretend it does not exist. But it still exists. You folks have no credibility.
Anyone willing to acknowledge that alternative C has the highest likelihood value? Higher than alternatives A and B?

And what was the expert author's conclusion again?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1353
So, apparently, advanced stone tool making humans were already busy, in the Rift Valley, Africa 320,000 years ago.
Scientists Are Amazed By Stone Age Tools They Dug Up In Kenya
Quote
The new studies also show that by 320,000 years ago this technology was well established in the region, suggesting that human ancestors likely started developing it even earlier, she says.
So much for L3 being the first humans developing from Middle East Neanderthals 120,000 years ago.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1354
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/13/233502.full.pdf
Quote
At this point,  it has to be mentioned that this possibility has been already
modeled, among other options, obtaining the highest likelihood
value [60]
but, in our opinion, it has not received the attention it
deserves. The parallelism of this early back to Africa of mtDNA haplogroup L3 with that proposed for the Y-chromosome haplogroup
E [61] is striking.

Source [60]:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2015/Groucutt_et_al-2015-Evolutionary_Anthropology-_Issues__News__and_Reviews.pdf
Quote
A Late dispersal from Africa 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -ej 0.1833 2 1 -en 0.3333 1 1 45369 44223 59953
1.0

B Early dispersal 120 ka with gene flow from Africa ca 55 ka
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 2 1 100 -em 0.2 2 1 0 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej 0.4
2 1 45539 39872 63447
0.6

C Early dispersal 120 ka with subsequent gene flow back into Africa
ms 600 20000 -t 1.25 -I 3 200 200 200 -T -eN 0 10 -eG 0 56.27 -eG 0.05 0 -ej 0.1167 3 2 -
en 0.1333 2 0.2 -em 0.1667 1 2 2 -en 0.2667 2 0.32 -em 0.3333 1 2 0 -en 0.3333 1 1 -ej
0.4 2 1 4984 41383 33507
1.3
People did not react to this. More evidence supporting the Out of the Middle East theory. Do people understand this?
Do people understand this? What do you think of this?
People may have overlooked something in this. Alternative B is based on gene flow FROM Africa. Alternative C is based on gene flow INTO Africa.
Worth repeating.
People can ignore this - pretend it does not exist. But it still exists. You folks have no credibility.
Anyone willing to acknowledge that alternative C has the highest likelihood value? Higher than alternatives A and B?
Anyone?

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1355
I've already told you, I'll answer once you answer my question - once we actually finish up the discussion we were having.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1356
Will be leaving this topic shortly.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1357
Since the BLAST pairwise comparisons of the genome sequences of actual individuals independently and consistently corroborates the Phyotree phylogeny, and unequivocally supports OoA while deep-sixing Doug's L3-based humanity origin hypothesis fantasies, leaving the subject seems an appropriate means of defeatist flouncing.

Bye Doug, better luck next time.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1358
Updated summary:
There is support for the idea that the first humans in Israel could have evolved from indigenous Neanderthals *
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 originated in the Middle East **
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 migrated from the Middle East into Africa**
AND
there is support for the idea that L3 fanned out into Africa.***

Those are basically all of the fundamental ideas of the Out of the Middle East theory.

*
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322092990_Skhul_lithic_technology_and_the_dispersal_of_Homo_sapiens_into_Southwest_Asia

**
 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/12/13/233502

***
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/3/915/1005941

Updated summary.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1359
No-Reason-To-Be-Updated Summary:

Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1360
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1361
Are modern humans pterosaurs under the out of the middle east phylogeny?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1362
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1363
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 08:45:45 AM by socrates1

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1364
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814

How's your chart coming on Doug?  Been a good few days so far and I'm almost weeing myself in scientific anticipation.  That'll show them out of Africa's. 

There may be awards in your future Doug.  Sorry, did I say 'awards', I meant 'wards'.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1365
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814

There is no Out of Middle East phylogeny

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1366
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814
If by L0, you mean the split between L0 and the rest of humanity, then yes. If by L0, you mean modern members of L0, then no.

And the fact that it isn't a part of the phylogeny of your idea is exactly a reason to reject your idea. As detailed before, we have a conclusion, strongly based on mtDNA data, that shows the accuracy of this chart. If your idea contradicts the chart (and you seem to insist that it does), then the data contradicts your idea.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1367
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
Yeah, I see the problem. You don't understand phylogenetic trees, or even charts in general. Why is why (among many other things) you are a source of humor.
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:46:43 AM by Faid
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1368
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814
Are the apes "closest" to the L3 haplogroup in your theory? Yes? No? Maybe?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1369
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814
uncool seems to acknowledge this. It is simply a fact that the chart posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup.
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:49:11 AM by socrates1

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1370
Of course, we could say that apes are closest to the L1'2'3'4'5'6 haplogroup, compared to L0a, L0b, L0f, L0k, and L0d.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1371
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814
uncool seems to acknowledge this. It is simply a fact that the chart posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup.
Anyone else care to acknowledge it?

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1372
I'll thank you to take note of my phrasing. Again: If by L0, you mean the split between L0 and the rest of humanity, then yes. If by L0, you mean modern members of L0, then no.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1373
One thing I have always wondered about is brought out in the chart that Faid posted. It shows the apes closest to the L0 haplogroup. That seems odd to me. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!
Faid sees the problem. That is why he makes that silly attempt at humor. Do others see the problem?
The chart* posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup. That is not part of the Out of the Middle East phylogeny!

* https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/3/757/1243814
uncool seems to acknowledge this. It is simply a fact that the chart posted by Faid shows the apes as closest to the L0 haplogroup.
Lol. Do tell.

By "apes" I presume you mean apes other than humans. So, WHY is L0 "closer"? Explain in detail. And would L3 be "closer' to those apes under YOUR "phylogeny"?


You won't answer any of those questions, of course. But its fun to make you sweat.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1374
I'll thank you to take note of my phrasing. Again: If by L0, you mean the split between L0 and the rest of humanity, then yes. If by L0, you mean modern members of L0, then no.
Let us leave it to Dr. Pterosaur to explain what he means. I'm sure it would be... interesting. :popcorn:
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.