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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 17978 times) previous topic - next topic

Dean W, VoxRat (+ 1 Hidden) and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1475
It's not looking good for the out of the middle east shenanigans.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1476
As a sidenote the chart below does not include any Middle East Neanderthals. It is not appropriate to make any conclusions from this study. As much as people here would like to.


But it is a very interesting study because it shows how close Neanderthals are to L3.
It shows that Neanderthals are close to L3 and could support that conclusion even more, if Middle East Neanderthals were included. But it is impressive as it is.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1477
Why does Dean W keep posting that pretend phylogeny?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1478
The only possible "problem" I can see is if you are attempting to allege racism.

Is that the "problem"?

I didn't see that one coming, but that is Socrates seems to be doing: trying to associate the L0 haplogroup more closely to the apes than the other L haplogroups, to intimate something about "race".

Socrates, I am by no means an expert on this subject, but from what I have read I conclude that Mitochondrial Eve, the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living humans, is situated at the divergence of macro-haplogroup L into L0 and L1-L6. That is what the chart shows.

If you try to isolate the MRCA with only L0, to say L0 is closest to the apes, that is no longer a monophyletic group (a clade). If you want to have a clade that includes the MRCA of humans, where humans diverged from the apes, you must include all of the L haplogroups, that is L0 and L1-L6. When you do that, the L0 haplogroup is no closer to the apes than any of the other L haplogroups.

Having said that, I do have a question for the real experts here: Since the Oldest branch point in the mtDNA tree is between Haplogroup L0 and its sister group L1'5, would it be fair to say that Chronologically (but not genetically) the L0 haplogroup is the closest to the great apes? Maybe that is what Socrates is trying to say? Or is that also wrong?

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1479
As a note - L1'5 doesn't seem to be in the current tree; the current tree resolves L5 as being more closely related to L2'3'4'6 than to L1.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1480
As a sidenote the chart below does not include any Middle East Neanderthals. It is not appropriate to make any conclusions from this study. As much as people here would like to.


But it is a very interesting study because it shows how close Neanderthals are to L3.
It shows that Neanderthals are close to L3 and could support that conclusion even more, if Middle East Neanderthals were included. But it is impressive as it is.
"The data could support my conclusion more, if the data were just right"

The chart shows how these specimens are related (according to the data). The addition of more specimens is very unlikely to change that. And as this chart shows L0 as being basal to modern humans, it is very unlikely that additional specimens would make L3 basal.
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 03:29:16 PM by uncool

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1481
As a sidenote the chart below does not include any Middle East Neanderthals. It is not appropriate to make any conclusions from this study. As much as people here would like to.


But it is a very interesting study because it shows how close Neanderthals are to L3.
It shows that Neanderthals are close to L3 and could support that conclusion even more, if Middle East Neanderthals were included. But it is impressive as it is.
I am quite surprised and pleased at the study. I did not imagine anyone would choose Neanderthals and show how close they are to L3.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1482
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1483
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_human
Quote
Homo sapiens evolved from "archaic" or "robust" predecessors (Homo heidelbergensis, or a related offshoot from Homo erectus) around 315,000 years ago.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1484
I guess socrates's moment of lucidity could only last so long until he went back to being oblivious to any contradiction.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1485
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
I am wondering if you can even credibly compare Neanderthals to a claimed RSRS in central Africa. Certainly it makes sense to compare to Neanderthal if you are working with an Out of the Middle East theory.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1486
Personally, I'm kinda doubtful you can credibly compare humans and apes. You know, they're so not-similar.

Oh wait. That makes no sense.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1487
In other words: the chart tells you the relationships of these specimens, and how they can be grouped. The fact that you can add another specimen does not negate the conclusions drawn from the specimens you already had.

The only thing it can change is where you put the root of the combined tree. And given that you've already accepted that neanderthals aren't descended from modern humans, that can't change the root of the modern human tree.
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 04:08:23 PM by uncool

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1488
The only other thing you can say from undiscovered evidence is that it's possible that undiscovered evidence will contradict the conclusions already reached. But that's like saying "I flipped this coin 100 times and got heads every times, it's probably fair because I could possibly get 100 tails next!"
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 04:17:13 PM by uncool

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1489
Socrates what do you get out of spending all this time playing your usual games? Why not just state your case succinctly and clearly right from the get go?

Imagine how much of your precious time you'd save!

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1490
Why does Dean W keep posting that pretend phylogeny?

Because I want you to feel good about yourself.  What evidence that doesn't contradict you hypothesis would look like.  You keep prattling on about how close L3 is to neandertals in the "rainbow" chart, when everyone can see how ridiculous that is.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1491
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
I am wondering if you can even credibly compare Neanderthals to a claimed RSRS in central Africa. Certainly it makes sense to compare to Neanderthal if you are working with an Out of the Middle East theory.
I wonder if people have even thought about this.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1492
The only possible "problem" I can see is if you are attempting to allege racism.

Is that the "problem"?

I didn't see that one coming, but that is Socrates seems to be doing: trying to associate the L0 haplogroup more closely to the apes than the other L haplogroups, to intimate something about "race".

Socrates, I am by no means an expert on this subject, but from what I have read I conclude that Mitochondrial Eve, the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living humans, is situated at the divergence of macro-haplogroup L into L0 and L1-L6. That is what the chart shows.

If you try to isolate the MRCA with only L0, to say L0 is closest to the apes, that is no longer a monophyletic group (a clade). If you want to have a clade that includes the MRCA of humans, where humans diverged from the apes, you must include all of the L haplogroups, that is L0 and L1-L6. When you do that, the L0 haplogroup is no closer to the apes than any of the other L haplogroups.

Having said that, I do have a question for the real experts here: Since the Oldest branch point in the mtDNA tree is between Haplogroup L0 and its sister group L1'5, would it be fair to say that Chronologically (but not genetically) the L0 haplogroup is the closest to the great apes? Maybe that is what Socrates is trying to say? Or is that also wrong?

I'm not a geneticist, but I'll take a stab a this.

People today with the L0 haplotype are no closer to the great apes than anyone else, chronologically or otherwise.  That's why the similarity percentages of people today with chimpanzees are virtually identical.  All humans have had the same amount of time to acquire mtDNA mutations since the human-human MRCA, no matter where one's particular lineage diverged from any other.  For that matter, chimpanzees have had the same amount of time as humans to acquire mtDNA mutations since the human-chimpanzee MRCA, so they are no closer to the human-chimpanzee MRCA than we are.

As to chronology, the first divergence was between the original L0 and the ancestor of the future L1-6.  Those two women were chronologically and genetically equidistant from the MRCA.  Later, when the second divergence between the original L1 and the ancestor of the future L2-6 occurred, all living L0s at the time, the original L1 and the ancestor of the future L2-6 were chronologically and genetically equidistant from the MRCA.  And so on up to the present.


  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1493
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
I am wondering if you can even credibly compare Neanderthals to a claimed RSRS in central Africa. Certainly it makes sense to compare to Neanderthal if you are working with an Out of the Middle East theory.
I wonder if people have even thought about this.
Hah. No you don't. You just want to pretend as if the data doesn't contradict your idea.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1494
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
I am wondering if you can even credibly compare Neanderthals to a claimed RSRS in central Africa. Certainly it makes sense to compare to Neanderthal if you are working with an Out of the Middle East theory.
I wonder if people have even thought about this.

I gave it the brief consideration it was due. 

I made this fake BLAST tree as a joke, but it can help me show you how your thinking is wrong.  Your imaginary Middle Eastern L3 ancestor neandertals supposedly would have mtDNA closer to modern humans (including L3) than the neandertals we have sequences for, right?  That's why you snivel that those neandertals are irrelevant.  (Not because they don't fit the bill as human ancestors, of course.  Wink, wink.)

Well, if that were the case, your Middle Eastern neandertals would come out where I've shown in this tree, closer to modern humans.  (Any neandertal we could sequence would be far too recent to be ancestral to humans, no matter where it was found.)  It wouldn't change the distance between humans and real neandertals, the one's we do have sequences for.  And if L3 were the most basal branch of humans, it would be right where I've placed it.

Stop pretending you don't get this.  Why are you playing so dumb?

  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 06:14:24 PM by Dean W

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1495
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
I am wondering if you can even credibly compare Neanderthals to a claimed RSRS in central Africa. Certainly it makes sense to compare to Neanderthal if you are working with an Out of the Middle East theory.
I wonder if people have even thought about this.
I must admit I had not thought of that at first. But when it occurred to me, it was obvious that it was ridiculous to compare Neanderthals very, very far way with a proposed RSRS in central Africa. It does not pass the smell test. But it does make sense in relation to humans having evolved from Neanderthals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_human
Quote
Homo sapiens evolved from "archaic" or "robust" predecessors (Homo heidelbergensis, or a related offshoot from Homo erectus) around 315,000 years ago.
  • Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 06:16:30 PM by socrates1

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1496
"I must admit I had not thought of that at first. But when it occurred to me that the evidence was against me it was obvious that the evidence just didn't count"

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1497
Neanderthals were far, far away from central Africa. It is kind of odd to be comparing to Neanderthals in order to support an Out of Africa theory.
But I am glad they did.
I am wondering if you can even credibly compare Neanderthals to a claimed RSRS in central Africa. Certainly it makes sense to compare to Neanderthal if you are working with an Out of the Middle East theory.
I wonder if people have even thought about this.
I must admit I had not thought of that at first. But when it occurred to me, it was obvious that it was ridiculous to compare Neanderthals very, very far way with a proposed RSRS in central Africa. It does not pass the smell test. But it does make sense in relation to humans having evolved from Neanderthals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_human
Quote
Homo sapiens evolved from "archaic" or "robust" predecessors (Homo heidelbergensis, or a related offshoot from Homo erectus) around 315,000 years ago.

In fact it shows that L3 is very similar to Neanderthal. Was it 25 unaccounted-for changes?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1498
We are now in the first stage where people pretend not to see that there is a problem.
Perhaps shortly someone will acknowledge that that is a problem.
After that is the denial stage.
Anyone?

Please note that I am not the one to introduce the word "racism". That is something that uncool has introduced.  I am just posting about what the chart shows.
Uncool is reporting the word for your reason to report it. Why is that a problem?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1499
Socrates is terrified of postulating where his mythical beings' mtDNA would fit in with that of real beings.  Hence his attempts at diversion.  What a laugh.

Perhaps his imaginary Middle Eastern neandertals had no mitochondria.

Is that it, Doug?