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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 19881 times) previous topic - next topic

uncool, Dean W, Saunt Taunga (+ 2 Hidden) and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1600
Anyway, let's get this train back on track.  Picked a tree yet, Doug?  C'mon, pretend it's Christmas.

N   garden variety neandertal

N*  hypothetical Middle Eastern neandertal whose sister is on the line you think led to modern humans.

L3   member of haplogroup L3

L0   member of haplogroup L0

  • Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 06:28:48 PM by Dean W

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1601

Why are there 15 combinations and not 16? I'm just thinking with 4 variables the number of combinations is n^2

Try it with 3. You should find that there are only 3 trees, not 9. Or more trivially, that there is only one tree with 2.

The formula for the number of rooted trees with n specimens is (2n-3)!!, where the !! means "double factorial", that is, the product where each step decreases by 2, and you stop when you reach either 1 or 0. For example, 7!! = 7*5*3*1 = 105, so there are 105 rooted trees with 5 specimens. 75 of them have a single specimen split off from the others, while 30 of them split into 3 and 2. Note that this doesn't make sense if you have only one specimen.

For unrooted trees (which is all that can be recovered if you have no outgroup and don't assume equidistant star-like radiation), this becomes (2n-5)!!. For example, if you have 3 specimens, you can't recover anything about their relationship (without assuming equidistant star-like radiation), which I noted in an example to socrates earlier. Note that this doesn't make sense if you only have two specimens.

I don't want to hijack this (amazing :) ) thread into a discussion of combinational theory, so just consider this in the context of phylogenetic trees only.

I find that (2n-3)!! = (n-1)! / [(2^n-1) (n-1)!] and that is interesting, to me anyway

Just one more question: I see with 5 specimens there are 105 rooted trees and they can only be split up with legs as 4 +1 and 3 + 2. You wrote "75 of them have a single specimen split off from the others, while 30 of them split into 3 and 2" How do you know that breakdown of 75 + 30 without generating all the trees? Thanks


  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1602
5 ways to divide 5 into 4 + 1, 15 rooted trees with 4, 1 rooted tree with 1 (I was wrong; it does make sense to talk about 1 for rooted trees - (-1)!! is 1 - and 2 for unrooted; it doesn't make sense to talk about 1 for unrooted). 5*15*1 = 75.

10 ways to divide 5 into 3 + 2, 3 rooted trees with 3, 1 rooted tree with 2. 10*3*1 = 30.

  • Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 12:02:51 AM by uncool

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1603
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1604
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
It needs zero.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1605
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
It needs zero.
What do you believe the OoA theory needs them for?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1606
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
It needs zero.
What do you believe the OoA theory needs them for?


Probably because, last time I looked, Socrates believed that modern European (<<kaff-kaff!>> - white) humans are evolved from (sexy red-headed light-skinned) Neanderthals. He may have revised that belief at some point, but I suspect he still thinks it on some level. Therefore, in his view, lots of Neanderthal sex with homo must occur to get us from Africa to the Middle East.

If that's not the case, then I've no idea why he's so fixated on OOA not being a reality.


Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1607
I'm not sure if he even thinks Neanderthals and sapiens coexisted. He thinks sapiens "evolved from" Neanderthals, which to him means that Neanderthals are the direct ancestors of sapiens, and that a transition took place from one to the other, in the middle east, with Neanderthals ceasing to exist when sapiens came about.

That's why the idea of humans mating with Neanderthals seems so absurd to him. To him it's like the idea of mating with your long-dead ancestor.

I think he sees the fact that some humans carry some Neanderthal DNA as vindication of his beliefs, and the idea that humans mated with Neanderthal as an "ad hoc" explanation of the DNA evidence. He does not, and cannot, understand that, rather than being some invention to explain away the evidence, it is a conclusion from the evidence. This is because he does not understand biology, or indeed any science.

Of course this is just what I'm able to piece together from the ramblings of a person who refuses to clearly state his viewpoint on anything and instead insists on intimating it through vague questions and meaningless stock phrases.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1608
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
It needs zero.
What do you believe the OoA theory needs them for?


Probably because, last time I looked, Socrates believed that modern European (<<kaff-kaff!>> - white) humans are evolved from (sexy red-headed light-skinned) Neanderthals. He may have revised that belief at some point, but I suspect he still thinks it on some level. Therefore, in his view, lots of Neanderthal sex with homo must occur to get us from Africa to the Middle East.

If that's not the case, then I've no idea why he's so fixated on OOA not being a reality.
And to get rid of that awful darkness. I mean, even one drop is too much.
Are we there yet?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1609
Cheddar man must bother the shit out of him:



Quote
The first modern Britons, who lived about 10,000 years ago, had "dark to black" skin, a groundbreaking DNA analysis of Britain's oldest complete skeleton has revealed.

The fossil, known as Cheddar Man, was unearthed more than a century ago in Gough's Cave in Somerset. Intense speculation has built up around Cheddar Man's origins and appearance because he lived shortly after the first settlers crossed from continental Europe to Britain at the end of the last ice age. People of white British ancestry alive today are descendants of this population.

It was initially assumed that Cheddar Man had pale skin and fair hair, but his DNA paints a different picture, strongly suggesting he had blue eyes, a very dark brown to black complexion and dark curly hair.
The discovery shows that the genes for lighter skin became widespread in European populations far later than originally thought - and that skin colour was not always a proxy for geographic origin in the way it is often seen to be today.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/first-modern-britons-dark-black-skin-cheddar-man-dna-analysis-reveals

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1610
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
I advise people to attend to what I actually have posted and not what the folks here absurdly attribute to me. Neanderthal mating was added to the Out of Africa theory to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that but people pretend otherwise.
  • Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 03:24:20 PM by socrates1

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1611
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
I advise people to attend to what I actually evolve and not the folks here absurdly attribute to me. Neanderthal mating was added to the Out of Africa theory to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that but people pretend otherwise.
Nonsense.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1612
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
I advise people to attend to what I actually evolve and not the folks here absurdly attribute to me. Neanderthal mating was added to the Out of Africa theory to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that but people pretend otherwise.
Nonsense.
You notoriously get pretense and sincerity mixed up.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1613
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
I advise people to attend to what I actually evolve and not the folks here absurdly attribute to me. Neanderthal mating was added to the Out of Africa theory to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that but people pretend otherwise.
Nonsense.
You notoriously get pretense and sincerity mixed up.
Like many things.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1614
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
I advise people to attend to what I actually evolve and not the folks here absurdly attribute to me. Neanderthal mating was added to the Out of Africa theory to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that but people pretend otherwise.

"...attend to what I actually evolve".  These are clearly the words of an utter gobshite.

Also, why are they trying to salvage the OoA theory?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1615
Cheddar man must bother the shit out of him:



Quote
The first modern Britons, who lived about 10,000 years ago, had "dark to black" skin, a groundbreaking DNA analysis of Britain's oldest complete skeleton has revealed.

The fossil, known as Cheddar Man, was unearthed more than a century ago in Gough's Cave in Somerset. Intense speculation has built up around Cheddar Man's origins and appearance because he lived shortly after the first settlers crossed from continental Europe to Britain at the end of the last ice age. People of white British ancestry alive today are descendants of this population.

It was initially assumed that Cheddar Man had pale skin and fair hair, but his DNA paints a different picture, strongly suggesting he had blue eyes, a very dark brown to black complexion and dark curly hair.
The discovery shows that the genes for lighter skin became widespread in European populations far later than originally thought - and that skin colour was not always a proxy for geographic origin in the way it is often seen to be today.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/first-modern-britons-dark-black-skin-cheddar-man-dna-analysis-reveals


Another interesting thing about Cheddar man, also covered in the article - despite having died 10,000 years ago, his DNA lives on in a number of local residents who are genetically his relatives.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1616
...

Also, why are they trying to salvage the OoA theory?
because they can't bring themselves to admit that they - with all their degrees and academic trappings and access to all the fossils and gigabytes of molecular data - were wrong and "Socrates" - armed with nothing more than his raging narcissism - was right?

Or perhaps it's a conspiracy to advance the Afrocentric agenda of The Left, by promoting the "lie" that Africa is humankind's motherland?

:dunno:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1617

People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs.

Oh, bullshit.  Nobody here has ever denied that introgression between Neandertals and AMHs took place.  If research (see below) indicates that one single case of introgression between interfertile coexisting populations every 77 generations (1500+ years?) is sufficient to explain the amount of neandertal DNA sequences in modern populations, there's nothing that needs "salvaging" now is there?

Quote
Extremely Rare Interbreeding Events Can Explain Neanderthal DNA in Living Humans

Our results indicate that the amount of Neanderthal DNA in living non-Africans can be explained with maximum probability by the exchange of a single pair of individuals between the subpopulations at each 77 generations, but larger exchange frequencies are also allowed with sizeable probability. The results are compatible with a long coexistence time of 130,000 years, a total interbreeding population of order 104 individuals, and with all living humans being descendants of Africans both for mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome.

You claim your hypothesis requires no introgression.  That's a laugh, when you have no clue on how to put four individuals in a tree, not even when I let you have an imaginary one that exists only in your mind.  Being forced to stall by making feeble distractions must be humiliating for you.  Why abase yourself so unnecessarily?  Pick a tree out of all possible ones.  Let me help you try to exhume your hypothesis from the grave it's in.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1618
This is probably obvious but the Out of the Middle East theory does not require multiple matings with Neanderthals.
People here are shy to acknowledge how many matings the Out of Africa theory needs. Of course there is no support for any of it. It is just an ad hoc hypothesis to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that.
I advise people to attend to what I actually have posted and not what the folks here absurdly attribute to me. Neanderthal mating was added to the Out of Africa theory to salvage the theory. Everyone knows that but people pretend otherwise.
People here still cannot acknowledge the number of times the Out of Africa folks have needed to claim Neanderthal matings. That is just one of the many ad hoc hypotheses they have had to graft on to the Out of Africa theory as new evidence arises that contradicts the theory.
  • Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 06:25:54 PM by socrates1

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1619
As an important sidenote, almost all the genes of modern humans are the same as Neanderthals. Not just the 1-5% that is often mentioned.

https://www.livescience.com/1122-neanderthal-99-5-percent-human.html
Quote
The results from the new studies confirm the Neanderthal's humanity, and show that their genomes and ours are more than 99.5 percent identical, differing by only about 3 million bases.
"This is a drop in the bucket if you consider that the human genome is 3 billion bases," said Edward Rubin of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, who led one of the research teams.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267388
Quote
The genome sequence of Neanderthal shows that humans' and Neanderthals' genomes are 99.5 percent identical.
It took four years for the researchers to sequence 3.7 billion base pairs in the Neanderthal genome, out of which they have read only about 60 percent of the genes.
Initial analysis shows that humans and Neanderthal share the same version of a "language gene" called FOXP2 according to team leader Svante Pääbo from Max Planck Institute. This gene helps develop the language skills in the species implying that Neanderthal could talk as well as humans.
  • Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 06:44:00 PM by socrates1

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1620
So, why can't you pick a tree from all possible trees?  What are you afraid of?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1621
So, why can't you pick a tree from all possible trees?  What are you afraid of?

Doug, why can't you pick a tree and be part of reality?  Instead of being some kind of paranarmal dipshit with no tree?

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1622
Is it because your pet hypothesis would be forever exposed as fraudulent crap if subjected to reality.  I think it is.  Prove me wrong and pick a tree.  Reality demands it.

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1623
As an important sidenote, almost all the genes of modern humans are the same as Neanderthals. Not just the 1-5% that is often mentioned.

https://www.livescience.com/1122-neanderthal-99-5-percent-human.html
Quote
The results from the new studies confirm the Neanderthal's humanity, and show that their genomes and ours are more than 99.5 percent identical, differing by only about 3 million bases.
"This is a drop in the bucket if you consider that the human genome is 3 billion bases," said Edward Rubin of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, who led one of the research teams.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267388
Quote
The genome sequence of Neanderthal shows that humans' and Neanderthals' genomes are 99.5 percent identical.
It took four years for the researchers to sequence 3.7 billion base pairs in the Neanderthal genome, out of which they have read only about 60 percent of the genes.
Initial analysis shows that humans and Neanderthal share the same version of a "language gene" called FOXP2 according to team leader Svante Pääbo from Max Planck Institute. This gene helps develop the language skills in the species implying that Neanderthal could talk as well as humans.
Could it be that there is more than one way to express similarity as a percentage?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #1624
Socrates, we share approximately 96% of our genome with chimpanzees. It's not a perfect argument re Neanderthal-human genome similarity.