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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 25350 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4075
Nothing in that link and quote explains the existence of AMH in Africa 196,000 years ago, or the non-basal nature of L3.

Your "theory" cannot even stand yet.

Keep trying.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4076
Nothing in that link and quote explains the existence of AMH in Africa 196,000 years ago, or the non-basal nature of L3.

Your "theory"  "theory"  cannot even stand yet.

Keep trying.
fyp
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4077
Quote
An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]

Notice the strike through.

  • Fenrir
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4078
Was wondering how long till you noticed that own goal.
It's what plants crave.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4079
Quote
This all supports the idea that L3 originated in the Levant, some migrated into the Nile area and others migrated into Arabia.
So that explains the Africans in the Egypt and Northern Sudan area.
And of course it explains L3 in Arabia.

This is relevant and contains some very interesting material (although some of its interpretations are a hold-over from the Out of Africa theory). And it uses a particular assumption about mutation rate.
Quote
  Here we present the first high-coverage whole genome sequences from a Middle Eastern population consisting of 14 Eastern Province Saudi Arabians. Genomes from this region are of interest to further answer questions regarding "Out-of-Africa" human migration. Applying a pairwise sequentially Markovian coalescent model (PSMC), we inferred the history of population sizes between 10,000 years and 1,000,000 years before present (YBP) for the Saudi genomes and an additional 11 high-coverage whole genome sequences from Africa, Asia and Europe.
  The model estimated the initial separation from Africans at approximately 110,000 YBP. This intermediate population then underwent a long period of decreasing population size culminating in a bottleneck 50,000 YBP followed by an expansion into Asia and Europe. The split and subsequent bottleneck were thus two distinct events separated by a long intermediate period of genetic drift in the Middle East. The two most frequent mitochondria haplogroups (30% each) were the Middle Eastern U7a and the African L. The presence of the L haplogroup common in Africa was unexpected given the clustering of the Saudis with Europeans in the phylogenetic tree and suggests some recent African admixture. To examine this further, we performed formal tests for a history of admixture and found no evidence of African admixture in the Saudi after the split. Taken together, these analyses suggest that the L3 haplogroup found in the Saudi were present before the bottleneck 50,000 YBP. Given the TMRCA estimates for the L3 haplogroup of approximately 70,000 YBP and the timing of the Out-of-Africa split, these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.
    These results are consistent with the hypothesis that modern humans populated the Middle East before a split 110,000 YBP, underwent genetic drift for 60,000 years before expanding to Asia and Europe as well as back-migration into Africa. Examination of genetic variants discovered by Saudi whole genome sequencing in ancestral African populations and European/Asian populations will contribute to the understanding human migration patterns and the origin of genetic variation in modern humans.

Notice the strike-through.

This is also relevant but also contains the same particular assumption about mutation rate.
Quote
An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]

Notice the strike through.

  • Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:27:36 AM by socrates1

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4080
Quote
This all supports the idea that L3 originated in the Levant, some migrated into the Nile area and others migrated into Arabia.
So that explains the Africans in the Egypt and Northern Sudan area.
And of course it explains L3 in Arabia.

This is relevant and contains some very interesting material (although some of its interpretations are a hold-over from the Out of Africa theory). And it uses a particular assumption about mutation rate.
Quote
  Here we present the first high-coverage whole genome sequences from a Middle Eastern population consisting of 14 Eastern Province Saudi Arabians. Genomes from this region are of interest to further answer questions regarding "Out-of-Africa" human migration. Applying a pairwise sequentially Markovian coalescent model (PSMC), we inferred the history of population sizes between 10,000 years and 1,000,000 years before present (YBP) for the Saudi genomes and an additional 11 high-coverage whole genome sequences from Africa, Asia and Europe.
  The model estimated the initial separation from Africans at approximately 110,000 YBP. This intermediate population then underwent a long period of decreasing population size culminating in a bottleneck 50,000 YBP followed by an expansion into Asia and Europe. The split and subsequent bottleneck were thus two distinct events separated by a long intermediate period of genetic drift in the Middle East. The two most frequent mitochondria haplogroups (30% each) were the Middle Eastern U7a and the African L. The presence of the L haplogroup common in Africa was unexpected given the clustering of the Saudis with Europeans in the phylogenetic tree and suggests some recent African admixture. To examine this further, we performed formal tests for a history of admixture and found no evidence of African admixture in the Saudi after the split. Taken together, these analyses suggest that the L3 haplogroup found in the Saudi were present before the bottleneck 50,000 YBP. Given the TMRCA estimates for the L3 haplogroup of approximately 70,000 YBP and the timing of the Out-of-Africa split, these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.
    These results are consistent with the hypothesis that modern humans populated the Middle East before a split 110,000 YBP, underwent genetic drift for 60,000 years before expanding to Asia and Europe as well as back-migration into Africa. Examination of genetic variants discovered by Saudi whole genome sequencing in ancestral African populations and European/Asian populations will contribute to the understanding human migration patterns and the origin of genetic variation in modern humans.

Notice the strike-through.
Why would anyone give your striking through of someone else's material any credence.
After all, you're just an internet nutjob crackpot with no relevant education, training and/or experience who is dependent on Scrubbing Bubbles.
Are we there yet?

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4081
Quote
An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]

Notice the strike through.

Why? Your baseless edit and distortion of the words that others, smarter and more educated than you have written, is inconsequential.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4082
Quote
An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]

Notice the strike through.

Why? It's your strike through. It means nothing, not even to the cows who have come home.

This is just another example of your dishonesty and ignorance, like your reversing arrows on other peoples' documents. It shows you for what you are, an internet nutjob crackpot with no relevant education, training and/or experience who has a deep need to be somebody but can't because all the good stuff, like OoA and the origin of birds and whales and so on have been taken.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4083
Quote
An Asia center of origin and dispersal for haplogroup L3 has also been hypothesized based on the fossil record, the similar coalescence dates of L3 and its Eurasian-distributed M and N derivative clades (~71 kya), the distant location in Southeast Asia of the oldest subclades of M and N, and the comparable age of the paternal haplogroup DE. After an initial Out-of-Africa migration of early anatomically modern humans around 125 kya, fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia. These new Eurasian lineages are then suggested to have largely replaced the old autochthonous male and female African lineages.[4]

Notice the strike through.

Why? Your baseless edits and distortions of the words that others, smarter and more educated than you have written, is inconsequential.
Ironically, his efforts often only serve to highlight his dishonesty and ignorance.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4084
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4085
Still doesn't explain the non-basal nature of L3.

Or the presense of AMH in Africa 196,000 years ago, of course.

Keep trying.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4086
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.
Quote
We arrive at a rate of 1.57×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the coding region and 2.67×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the whole molecule, which is approximately 1.6-fold higher than the fossil calibrated rate[7].

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4087
Quote
  <  clip C&P lacking any reference or link  > 

... I will ignore anything of yours that is not accompanied with a reference link
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4088
Personally, it makes no difference at all to me if events estimated to have occurred X years ago turn out to have occurred 1.6X years ago.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4089
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.
Quote
We arrive at a rate of 1.57×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the coding region and 2.67×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the whole molecule, which is approximately 1.6-fold higher than the fossil calibrated rate[7].

This is why I was pointing out that the passages above were based on a particular mutation rate. We are justified to multiply those estimates by 1.6.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4090
Feel free to do so.

Doesn't change the position of L3.

What now?
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4091
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.
Quote
We arrive at a rate of 1.57×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the coding region and 2.67×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the whole molecule, which is approximately 1.6-fold higher than the fossil calibrated rate[7].

This is why I was pointing out that the passages above were based on a particular mutation rate. We are justified to multiply those estimates by 1.6.
This gives us L3 at 70 x 1.6 = 112kya.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4092
You do realize that you cannot selectively apply the x1.6 rate only to specific groups, right?

Then again, you probably don't. Oooooh boy. ::)
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4093
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.
Quote
We arrive at a rate of 1.57×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the coding region and 2.67×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the whole molecule, which is approximately 1.6-fold higher than the fossil calibrated rate[7].

This is why I was pointing out that the passages above were based on a particular mutation rate. We are justified to multiply those estimates by 1.6.
This gives us L3 at 70 x 1.6 = 112kya.
This puts us right in the middle of the Levant humans.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4094
With Omo I being 80,000 years older.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4095
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.
Quote
We arrive at a rate of 1.57×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the coding region and 2.67×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the whole molecule, which is approximately 1.6-fold higher than the fossil calibrated rate[7].

This is why I was pointing out that the passages above were based on a particular mutation rate. We are justified to multiply those estimates by 1.6.
This gives us L3 at 70 x 1.6 = 112kya.
This puts us right in the middle of the Levant humans.
This means that the mtDNA data using this revised mutation rate strongly supports the first appearance of L3 in the Levant

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4096
With L0 still appearing earlier.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4097
Quote
  <  clip C&P lacking any reference or link  > 

... I will ignore anything of yours that is not accompanied with a reference link

I do note that sucky makes it clear he "will ignore anything of yours that is not accompanied with a reference link." That would be anyone other than himself. He's not required to ignore himself, no matter what. Indeed, it would be idifficult for him to do so.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4098
Quote
Recent analyses of de novo DNA mutations in modern humans have suggested a nuclear substitution rate that is approximately half that of previous estimates based on fossil calibration. This result has led to suggestions that major events in human evolution occurred far earlier than previously thought.
Quote
We arrive at a rate of 1.57×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the coding region and 2.67×10−8 substitutions per site per year for the whole molecule, which is approximately 1.6-fold higher than the fossil calibrated rate[7].

This is why I was pointing out that the passages above were based on a particular mutation rate. We are justified to multiply those estimates by 1.6.
This gives us L3 at 70 x 1.6 = 112kya.
This puts us right in the middle of the Levant humans.
This means that the mtDNA data using this revised mutation rate strongly supports the first appearance of L3 in the Levant
From there they spread out into Europe, Asia and Arabia. Later the humans in Arabia migrated into Africa near Ethiopia.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4099
...Where they already lived in for tens of thousands of years (Omo I).

Hmmmm.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.