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Topic: Oldest Human Remains (Read 25353 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4200
I begin with the idea (we see in the passages)
"the passages" ?
The unattributed quotes mined from who knows where?
And edited by a Dunning Kruger poster child to try to force-fit them into his crackpot "Socrates" ?
... I will ignore anything of yours that is not accompanied with a reference link
Quote
that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
That's exactly right.
Phylogenies are not constructed by assuming a particular sequence is the origin.

You are doing it wrong.
  • Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:50:41 AM by VoxRat
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4201
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
"Just reverse the arrows"!!!!!!111 :clap:
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4202
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
I don't see what you are getting at. You keep referring to a graphic that clearly shows the lineage beginning with "L" in Central Africa (Lakes region) and spreads out from there. You seem to think the graphic shows just the opposite. Perhaps we should ask the expert on which direction the map shows the lines going? I believe that would be the authors. Unless, of course, you claim you know better what they actually meant than they did. In which case, there's no point in further discussion because you would then obviously be clinically psychotic.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4203
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted. I am taking that as a starting point. And then analyzing how that migration of L3 humans would have evolved into the other L haplogroups. Now we can look at the dating.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4204
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted.
Two problems with that:

(1) You reversed their conclusions with your "strike through"
(2) You have not provided any reference or link
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4205
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted. I am taking that as a starting point. And then analyzing how that migration of L3 humans would have evolved into the other L haplogroups. Now we can look at the dating.

How many multiple personalities (all with the same name) are there Socrates?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4206
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted. I am taking that as a starting point. And then analyzing how that migration of L3 humans would have evolved into the other L haplogroups. Now we can look at the dating.
The first thing to notice is that there are two quite different estimates about L3 summarized here:

Quote
Haplogroup L3
Possible time of origin 80,000-104,000 YBP[1] or 60,000-70,000 YBP[2]
Possible place of origin East Africa,[3] or Asia[4]

Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4207
No, the first thing to notice is that you have provided no reference link, so your post can be ignored.

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4208
Quote
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted.
I did just that!

This is what they had to say:
Quote
After three decades of mtDNA studies on human evolution the only incontrovertible main result is the African origin of all extant modern humans.
I didn't think further arguing was warranted. :D
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4209
socrates? Is there a reason you stopped listing the mutations?

Mind if I continue the list then?

From the L3 start, 3 mutations: T16311C, G1018A, G769A. Then L4 split off. Then 5 mutations: C182T, C3594T, C7256T, C13650T, C16278T. Then L6 split off. Then 2 mutations: A4104G, G7521A. Then L2 split off. Then 12 mutations: T195C, G247A, 522-523d (deletion; my notation may be incorrect, but the mutation would still be there), T525a, C8655T, G10688A, T10810C, A13105G, C13506T, A15301G, G16129A, C16187T, T16189C. Then L5 split off. Then 5 mutations: T152C, G2758A, T2885C, A7146G. Then L1 split off. Then 18 mutations, and then we have L0 (reference for all of these: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/pdf/main.pdf ). From there, it's an additional 11 mutations to get to L0d, followed by 4 for L0d1'2, 5 for L0d1, 1 for L0d1a'c'd, 8 for L0d1c, 2 for L0d1c1, 2 for L0d1c1a, 2 for L0d1c1a1, and 1 for L0d1c1a1b, which gives us the sequence EU092832, given here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/EU092832 (reference: http://www.phylotree.org/tree/L0.htm).

A total of 76 mutations from the L3 sequence to this modern-day human being's mitochondrial DNA sequence. Agreed?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4210
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

Really? Because that's what the quote you posted says it was. Are you doubting the veracity of the article? If so, on what basis? Have you any evidence they did not present or refer to? If not, then you're going to have to explain why and how each issue they examined with regard to their posted evidence and the basis for what led to their conclusions is wrong. If you do have new, additional evidence you wish to use to contradict either the validity of their data or the validity of their analysis and conclusions, then you need to present such, with appropriate citations and referrals along with copy pasta. In short, you have a lot of work cut out for you.

BTW, simply saying you interpret someone else's data, analysis and conclusions differently is not acceptable. You need to explain upon what grounds, what evidence, and what argument you are using to contradict the author you say you are just reinterpretting their work. Nope, you have to state in each case, what is it you are claiming about their evidence or argument and why, what basis you have for doing so. No, simply claiming OoA is wrong doesn't cut it. And remember, invalidating another hypothesis does nothing for validating yours.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4211
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
The line doesn't go down, it's going up.

First off, you don't use someone else's graphics showing just the opposite of what you are arguing, explaining the difference as simply they got the directions of the arrows wrong. Which is belied by the graphic itself, if one notices the legend in the lower left corner indicating the relevant dates for each major transition. Those don't go down south either. They start with "L" in Central Africa, what looks like the Lake Country and radiate out, South, East, West, North and from those directions on. Your L3 lineage is on the black portion of the line, indicated it is among the most recent migrations.

Secondly, what evidence do you offer in support of your fantasy. Evidence that you personally have developed. Not your edited versions of other peoples' research. Quote-mining, cherry-picking, redavinitioning, striking out words, editorializing, are not allowed and have no relevance. Don't bother.

But he IS a scientist!
Only in suckyland.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4212
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted. I am taking that as a starting point. And then analyzing how that migration of L3 humans would have evolved into the other L haplogroups. Now we can look at the dating.
The first thing to notice is that there are two quite different estimates about L3 summarized here:

Quote
Haplogroup L3
Possible time of origin 80,000-104,000 YBP[1] or 60,000-70,000 YBP[2]
Possible place of origin East Africa,[3] or Asia[4]

I covered this subject earlier. The different estimates depend on different assumptions. I am working with the idea of the later datings.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4213
Quote
L4
Age: 78,996.2 ± 7,353.1; CI=95% (Behar et al., 2012b)
Origin: Undetermined
Mutations: T195C! G5460A T16362C
Parent Branch: L3'4
Descendant branch(s): L4a L4b

Background
Haplogroup L4 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 71,600 and 86,300 years (Behar et al., 2012b).

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4214
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
Quite right! By George, I think he's got it.
Only problem is he's totally wrong. We do not begin with that idea because while one might be inspired to ask a question, that question itself is pretty much immaterial as it doesn't really matter if you ask "Is "A" a valid argument?" or "Is "A" an invalid argument?" Either way, the same question has to be addressed. Either the evidence you obtain supports ""A" is valid." or it doesn't or it indicates ""A" is invalid" or it doesn't." One of the four possibilities.

sucky seems to believe that somehow reinterpretting the data and conclusions of the authors of a paper or article without providing his own evidence an/or convincing arguments that invalidate their data, their methodology or the conclusions they drew from such. But beyond that, he seems to believe if he can find a hole in OoA, that supports his own fantasies. He's just unable to explain why that should be so. He could do so by directly comparing the available evidence, bit by bit. Explicitly stating how each bit supports, has no effect or refutes OoA and his own concoction. Backing those statements up with reference to the evidence, to the data.
Are we there yet?

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4215
Quote
L4
Age: 78,996.2 ± 7,353.1; CI=95% (Behar et al., 2012b)
Origin: Undetermined
Mutations: T195C! G5460A T16362C
Parent Branch: L3'4
Descendant branch(s): L4a L4b

Background
Haplogroup L4 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 71,600 and 86,300 years (Behar et al., 2012b).
It is interesting that if we use the later dating for L3 we find that it is later than L4.

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4216
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.

To be more precise.  By "you folks", you really mean every single scientist in the world who is working in this field.  They are all wrong and you are right.
Hello! You've finally figured it out! Congratulations!! Now let's move on as this is a point sucky would rather not discuss the ramifications of.
Are we there yet?

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4217
So the evidence indicates there was a migration of L3 into Africa which accounts for the presence of L3 in Africa. But what are we to make of the other L haplogroups in Africa?
I have proposed that they evolved from L3. That the differences between for example L3 and L4 developed in a progression from L3 to L4.
What is the evidence on behalf of and against this proposal?
The first thing is to see what would be involved in this scenario.
The first thing is to determine the changes that would be involved:
As far as I can see the changes from L3 to L4 are:
 G769A  G1018A  T16311C
This is not rocket science. It is just a matter of determining what this scenario would be like.

As usual VoxRat is intimating something. Perhaps someday he will let us know.
Anybody else?
 
I have listed the differences between L3 and L4. In the scenario I am analyzing those are the changes that would occur in an evolution from L3 to L4. That is after L3 migrated into Africa (in the Ethiopia area). A migration hypothesized in the passages I quoted above.
To use a formulation that you folks would prefer I have listed the changes between L3 and the common ancestor of L3 and L4.
For reference:


Notice the line that runs from L3 down southward in Africa. That is the line I am referring to.
And to get to the point where L4 branches off that southward line you have the changes I listed.
But if anyone thinks that would be a different set of changes, please let us know and explain why you think that.
And as I see it, the following would be the changes to get to the point where L6 branches off that southward line:
C3594T  C7256T  C13650T  C16278T
So if people see what I am getting at (it is not that difficult) then this is the scenario if L3 migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area)* and gave rise to the other L haplogroups. We can look at the dating shortly.


* as the quotes I gave earlier proposed a migration of L3 into Africa
Just to remind people of the first step:

Quote
these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.

Quote
fully modern human L3-carrying females are thus proposed to have back-migrated from the maternal haplogroup's place of origin in Eurasia around 70 kya along with males bearing the paternal haplogroup E, which is also thought to have originated in Eurasia.
Note that the migration was likely not around 70kya.

I begin with the idea (we see in the passages) that L3 arose in the Middle East, and that some migrated south in Arabia, and some of them migrated into Africa (Ethiopia area). You folks do not begin with that idea.
If you want to argue that, then argue it with the researchers I quoted. I am taking that as a starting point. And then analyzing how that migration of L3 humans would have evolved into the other L haplogroups. Now we can look at the dating.
I'm starting with the idea that you are a looney-toons, nutjob, internet crackpot with no relevant education, training and/or experience who dallies with Scrubbing Bubbles.
Are we there yet?

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4218
So using socrates's methodology, we can conclude that from (ancestral) L3, it took 76 mutations to get to a modern-day member of L0.

Right, socrates?

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4219
Quote
L4
Age: 78,996.2 ± 7,353.1; CI=95% (Behar et al., 2012b)
Origin: Undetermined
Mutations: T195C! G5460A T16362C
Parent Branch: L3'4
Descendant branch(s): L4a L4b

Background
Haplogroup L4 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 71,600 and 86,300 years (Behar et al., 2012b).
It is interesting that if we use the later dating for L3 we find that it is later than L4.
:facepalm:
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • socrates1
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4220
Quote
L4
Age: 78,996.2 ± 7,353.1; CI=95% (Behar et al., 2012b)
Origin: Undetermined
Mutations: T195C! G5460A T16362C
Parent Branch: L3'4
Descendant branch(s): L4a L4b

Background
Haplogroup L4 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 71,600 and 86,300 years (Behar et al., 2012b).
It is interesting that if we use the later dating for L3 we find that it is later than L4.
This must come as a shock since everybody "knows" that L3 is the end of the line. It is difficult to accept that it may be the beginning of the line.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4221
socrates, do you still not understand the difference between L4 and L3'4?

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4222
Quote
L4
Age: 78,996.2 ± 7,353.1; CI=95% (Behar et al., 2012b)
Origin: Undetermined
Mutations: T195C! G5460A T16362C
Parent Branch: L3'4
Descendant branch(s): L4a L4b

Background
Haplogroup L4 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 71,600 and 86,300 years (Behar et al., 2012b).
It is interesting that if we use the later dating for L3 we find that it is later than L4.
This must come as a shock since everybody "knows" that L3 is the end of the line. It is difficult to accept that it may be the beginning of the line.
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

  • uncool
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4223
Also, why would L3 being later than L4 make it hard for L3 to be the "end of the line", even if we assume you meant L3'4?

  • Faid
Re: Oldest Human Remains
Reply #4224
He doesn't even understand what the dates mean, or how they're derived.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.