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Topic: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions? (Read 460 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
Reply #25
You said you would exclude Gnostic Christians. Do you know of a "logic or fact trail" for the Divine Spark?

Yes. To a Gnostic Christian, since we think man is the greatest of all creations, and we are in a sense Gods, as that word means the epitome of all creations as well, the spark of God is just the life force that is keeping you alive.

We are naturalists and if you try to think like one, what I put becomes easy to understand. At least it is simple to me but I do recognize that many are literal in their definition of words like God. Atheists tend to try to dissuade me from using the word God because they cannot thing in terms of a non-supernatural God even though the ancient emperors used to name themselves God and their son as sons of God. In that sense, atheists are as stuck in literal reading of myths as fundamental Christians.

It hinders their understanding of Gnostic Christianity and our way of thinking, which is the closest thing to atheism while staying more agnostic, which is translated as Gnostic in the more Eastern traditions.

Regards
DL




That won't work. Experiments to find this spark (or life force) have failed, and vitalism is now a superseded scientific theory. Plus, the whole idea of this nonexistent spark being released from its captivity in matter and re-establishing its connection with whatever you call God is nonevidential as well.


I agree.

All that the spark of God represents is our life force.

We have no supernatural beliefs, but we do have life.

Regards
DL
I'm with you, as long as this "life force" is nothing more than the chemical reactions that keep you alive.

If you're not positing something that is beyond the natural world, then your beliefs are not supernatural.

So I guess the pivotal question is this:

What do you believe happens to this "spark" or "life force" when the body dies?

I think there might be a cosmic or universal consciousness, thanks to my one contact with it, but from within it, I could not tell if it was formed of live consciousness' or of our deceased.

I cannot see it being of the dead but as I said, I could not tell.

I do not see the telepathy required to access it to be supernatural though, thanks to this research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6yLngNnDY

I find the notion of eternal life to be a dismal proposition as I can see us bored to death if we were eternal. It would be torture more than a reward.

Regards
DL
The research in the video is interesting, and it definitely restrains itself to naturalistic explanations. While the evidence at this point is sparse, weak and not really indicative of something I'd call a "universal consciousness," I find the search intriguing and the possibilities fascinating.

The ramifications of this research on your OP can, I believe, be summed up by your noncommittal sentence, "I could not tell if it was formed of live consciousness or of our deceased."

If your church passes along the information in the video with the caveats that this is preliminary research and the findings need to be replicated and further studied, and it stresses that the scientists are investigating the possibility of a collection of living (not dead) consciousness, then I can't see anyone bringing about any fraud charges.

If, however, your church uses this video as "evidence" that there is a "spark" or "life force" that continues, without a material basis, after your body dies, and that this "spark" joins a "universal consciousness," then you are invoking the supernatural and are opening yourselves up to a fraud charge under the conditions of the OP.
  • Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 05:33:42 AM by Untheist

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
Reply #26
You said you would exclude Gnostic Christians. Do you know of a "logic or fact trail" for the Divine Spark?

Yes. To a Gnostic Christian, since we think man is the greatest of all creations, and we are in a sense Gods, as that word means the epitome of all creations as well, the spark of God is just the life force that is keeping you alive.

We are naturalists and if you try to think like one, what I put becomes easy to understand. At least it is simple to me but I do recognize that many are literal in their definition of words like God. Atheists tend to try to dissuade me from using the word God because they cannot thing in terms of a non-supernatural God even though the ancient emperors used to name themselves God and their son as sons of God. In that sense, atheists are as stuck in literal reading of myths as fundamental Christians.

It hinders their understanding of Gnostic Christianity and our way of thinking, which is the closest thing to atheism while staying more agnostic, which is translated as Gnostic in the more Eastern traditions.

Regards
DL




That won't work. Experiments to find this spark (or life force) have failed, and vitalism is now a superseded scientific theory. Plus, the whole idea of this nonexistent spark being released from its captivity in matter and re-establishing its connection with whatever you call God is nonevidential as well.


I agree.

All that the spark of God represents is our life force.

We have no supernatural beliefs, but we do have life.

Regards
DL
I'm with you, as long as this "life force" is nothing more than the chemical reactions that keep you alive.

If you're not positing something that is beyond the natural world, then your beliefs are not supernatural.

So I guess the pivotal question is this:

What do you believe happens to this "spark" or "life force" when the body dies?

I think there might be a cosmic or universal consciousness, thanks to my one contact with it, but from within it, I could not tell if it was formed of live consciousness' or of our deceased.

I cannot see it being of the dead but as I said, I could not tell.

I do not see the telepathy required to access it to be supernatural though, thanks to this research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6yLngNnDY

I find the notion of eternal life to be a dismal proposition as I can see us bored to death if we were eternal. It would be torture more than a reward.

Regards
DL
The research in the video is interesting, and it definitely restrains itself to naturalistic explanations. While the evidence at this point is sparse, weak and not really indicative of something I'd call a "universal consciousness," I find the search intriguing and the possibilities fascinating.

The ramifications of this research on your OP can, I believe, be summed up by your noncommittal sentence, "I could not tell if it was formed of live consciousness or of our deceased."

If your church passes along the information in the video with the caveats that this is preliminary research and the findings need to be replicated and further studied, and it stresses that the scientists are investigating the possibility of a collection of living (not dead) consciousness, then I can't see anyone bringing about any fraud charges.

If, however, your church uses this video as "evidence" that there is a "spark" or "life force" that continues, without a material basis, after your body dies, and that this "spark" joins a "universal consciousness," then you are invoking the supernatural and are opening yourselves up to a fraud charge under the conditions of the OP.

Depending on how I phrase things, you are correct. If I were to phrase it wrong, and am corrected, and I do it again, then it would be a lie.

Noetic science is in it's infancy and it will be interesting to see what they come up with in the future.

I agree that If I were to say that there is definitely an afterlife, I would be lying, and that is why I see all the religions that preach of such a thing as liars.

Regards
DL
  • Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 07:54:52 AM by Greatest Iam