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Topic: Alfie Evans (Read 2811 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #50
Parents should get to decide about medical care for their children.

Not courts.  Or doctors.

Period.

End of story.
It's painfully obvious that you have not given any serious thought to this issue.
Would it matter if he did, assuming, of course, that he could?
Are we there yet?

  • Spode
  • I'm sorry.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #51
The doctors didn't make the decision, the court did.

At least get the facts right.
Ok whatever.  My point remains.  Why is a court deciding something that parents should be deciding?

Orwellian.
Still haven't read 1984, I see...

Imagine a boot stamping on a Dave's face -- forever.

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #52
Why did a court even get involved at all?  When I was raising my kids *I* and *my wife* made the decisions regarding their treatment.
FFS, Dave, parents don't own their children. Children are people, with fucking human rights, and when their well-being is being threatened by improper care and decisions by the parents, you bet the state should step in in some way, to fucking protect the child. Even, as in this case, to end the suffering of the child, needlessly prolonged by poor parental decisions.
The key question is who gets to decide what is proper care and what is not? I would assume that parents in England still get to make decisions for their kids such as whether they will have green beans in their diet or not. And I would assume they can still make decisions on whether to treat an infection on their child's finger with antibiotics or not. And this decision making process essentially consists of the parents collecting data relevant to the situation from various people they deem to be experts, then making the decision. I fail to see how it's any different in Alfie Evans case. Why could the parents not collect data from the English doctors AND from the Italian doctors and then make their own decision?

  • Pingu
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #53
They could, and people do all the time. But very rarely it comes around that parents make decisions on behalf of their children that are seriously detrimental to their wellbeing - like refusing blood transfusions, for instance, or insisting on invasive futile treatment.

Under those circumstances, UK law regards the child's rights under the law as paramount, and if the child is not in a position to consent or assent to the recommended treatment, then the courts can make the child a "ward of court" and act in the best interests of the child.




I have a Darwin-debased mind.

  • Spode
  • I'm sorry.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #54
Parents should get to decide about medical care for their children.

Not courts.  Or doctors.

Period.

End of story.

Tonight is Walpurgisnacht. There is a local coven, led by old Keziah and Brown Jenkin, that plans to sacrifice a number of stolen unbaptized youths and unsullied she-goats upon the Alter of Sin atop the Green Tower. It will be in payment to Nyarlathotep for deeds and rites as of yet unperformed. Be warned. You have aroused the attention of unclean principalities in the air, heathen gentile, and the ire of the point between Hydra and Argo Navis is awoke. I will personally see to it that your name will be written in innocent blood in the Book of Azathoth.

  • Martin.au
  • Thingyologist
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #55
The doctors didn't make the decision, the court did.

At least get the facts right.
Ok whatever.  My point remains.  Why is a court deciding something that parents should be deciding?

Orwellian.
Still haven't read 1984, I see...

Imagine a boot stamping on a Dave's face -- forever.

But it's his own boot.... Is it still Orwellian if it's self inflicted?
"That which can be asserted with evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." (Dave Hawkins)

  • RickB
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #56
The only thing that I can say about this situation is that Dave appears to have absolutely no knowledge of it and is parroting someone else's opinion, perhaps his favorite grocer.

I don't agree with the parents, but I can understand and do sympathize with their position.

From the court documents it was clear that their son's brain was effectively gone.  It was also clear that they understood this but could not accept it.

Dave's position seems to be that millions of people should currently be on life support with machines breathing for them, keeping their hearts beating.  And society should wholly support this outcome. 

According to Dave, as long as they (the parents) want the machines plugged in, they should be plugged in.

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #57
What would be worse is if Dave thought that as long as the parents could afford it, the machines should be left on.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • RickB
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #58
What would be worse is if Dave thought that as long as the parents could afford it, the machines should be left on.

Except that Dave does not mention the expense at all, though it is mentioned in the court documents (65,000 pounds for the two week period that the Italians were discussing).  No mention of a cure, just maintenance.


Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #59
What would be worse is if Dave thought that as long as the parents could afford it, the machines should be left on.

Except that Dave does not mention the expense at all, though it is mentioned in the court documents (65,000 pounds for the two week period that the Italians were discussing).  No mention of a cure, just maintenance.
High-tech taxidermy. Should parents be allowed to have their children stuffed?
  • Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 09:36:19 PM by Saunt Taunga

  • RAFH
  • Have a life, already.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #60
Only if they go ahead and have them animatronisized at the same time, blue tooth enabled, independent rechargeable power supply.
Are we there yet?

  • Photon
  • I interfere with myself
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #61
Gigolo Joe, say it ain't so!

  • Zombies!
  • We're in the pipe, five by five.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #62
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiavo_memo

Quote
During the Terri Schiavo controversy in March 2005, a talking points memo on the controversy was written by Brian Darling, the legal counsel to Republican Senator Mel Martinez of Florida.[1] The memo suggested the Schiavo case offered "a great political issue" that would appeal to the party's base (core supporters) and could be used against Senator Bill Nelson, a Democrat from Florida who was up for reelection in 2006, because he had refused to co-sponsor the bill which came to be known as the Palm Sunday Compromise.[2] Bill Nelson was nevertheless reelected as Senator on November 7, 2006 with 60% of the vote.
This reminds me of how the right wing tried to keep Terri Schiavo alive to pander to their base, despite the fact that her brain was mostly gone. 
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Sat May 19 2018
Go fuck yourself until you can learn how to respect me. Then we'll talk. And if this offends you and you don't want to participate in this thread anymore, then fine. There's plenty of other science threads to participate in.

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #63
OMG

Again

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #64
A walk through the ocean of most mens souls would scarcely get your feet wet.

  • Zombies!
  • We're in the pipe, five by five.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #65
OMG

Again

LOL
Again
Remember when Dave was an ass?  Now he's barely half-assed, and it's sad, really.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Sat May 19 2018
Go fuck yourself until you can learn how to respect me. Then we'll talk. And if this offends you and you don't want to participate in this thread anymore, then fine. There's plenty of other science threads to participate in.

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #66
OMG

Again

LOL
Again
Remember when Dave was an ass?  Now he's barely half-assed, and it's sad, really.

 :sad:
A walk through the ocean of most mens souls would scarcely get your feet wet.

  • Zombies!
  • We're in the pipe, five by five.
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #67
Only if they go ahead and have them animatronisized at the same time, blue tooth enabled, independent rechargeable power supply.
Quote from: Dave Hawkins on Sat May 19 2018
Go fuck yourself until you can learn how to respect me. Then we'll talk. And if this offends you and you don't want to participate in this thread anymore, then fine. There's plenty of other science threads to participate in.

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #68
OMG

Again
Dave Hawkins, articulate spokesman for the Trumpublican Party.   ::)
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #69
If being an ass is a Bad Thing, wouldn't being a half-ass be a better thing?

  • Faid
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #70
No, it just means you can't even commit to getting a bad thing right.
Who even made the rule that we cannot group ducks and fish together for the simple reason that they are both aquatic? If I want to group them that way and it serves my purpose then I can jolly well do it however I want to and it is still a nested hierarchy and you can't tell me that it's not.

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #71
Alfie was made and Italian citizen. The transfer to Italy was backed by the Pope.  Italian prosecutors may try to prosecute the British hospital.  This is getting interesting.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6180783/alfie-evanss-death-prompts-italian-prosecutors-to-consider-opening-case-against-alder-hey-childrens-hospital/

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #72
So here's neo-Luddite Hawkins, who thinks that doctors are generally unnecessarily overeducated and modern medicine is all a giant conspiracy, getting all revved up and excited, pom-poms at the ready, about this heartbreakingly tragic case of parents desperately holding on to the illusion that their child - whose brain had basically dissolved - could somehow be saved by state-of-the-art medical intervention.  It's Good Guys Team Pro-Life vs. Bad Guys Team Medical Realists.  The sort of Us-vs.-Them set-to that Hawkins just loves to love.

It's unseemly, to put it generously.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #73
Lol. Of course he was.  Fucking xians. Can't live with em, can't feed em to the lions anymore.

Eta

Xpost
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • Pingu
Re: Alfie Evans
Reply #74
It's probably not entirely wishful thinking that Alfie's parents thought that Alfie was responding to them and aware.  There are routes from sensory organs (e.g. eyes, ears) directly to areas of the midbrain (B)


that can mediate reflexive responses to stimuli without cerebral involvement in the process.  I remember in the Terry Schiavo case, people reporting that she appeared to follow stimuli with her eyes, and she possibly did.  It can certainly produce the illusion of engagement, and I expect that's especially persuasive in a beloved toddler.

So I do get it.  So sad.





I have a Darwin-debased mind.