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Topic: Cultural appropriation (Read 1014 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #50
I said hola at my neighbor 's gringo de mayo party.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #51
Do you kinda feel you've been pressed to take on the emotional-intellectual labour here, meep?

It's likely no one asking has been particularly affected or even inconvenienced or even have participated knowingly in the topic at hand, but here we are.

Nah, it's cool. This isn't a particularly sensitive topic. It's not even something that's affected me a whole lot directly. The only thing about Argentinian culture that anyone cares about is beef and tango, and I'm not insulted by people imitating tango and making fools out of their dumb asses by doing it poorly and thinking it's hilarious. Just like people imitating flamenco by randomly stomping their feet and yelling OLE. Like, okay, shrug, you have fun looking ridiculous and corny, then, I guess. :v: But I do get irritated when people do this shit to other Latinos who don't get off as easy as Argentinians do or other groups, especially when it annoys my friends.

I've also been guilty of some dumb shit in the past, like when I bought an Orthodox cross necklace in Russia and wore it because I thought it was pretty before thinking, hmm, maybe it's not the most appropriate or respectful thing in the world to be wearing someone else's religious symbol that might make them think I believe in the same things when I think their church is full of shit.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #52
I am using "sacred" here in a very general sense (although the specific sense still applies - see FN dress) - there are plenty of sacred things even among skeptics.

GNU Terry Pratchett.
I'm saying that skeptics tend not to care about other people's sacred things, and I too am using "sacred" in a general sense. 

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #53
Look how many assholes put on fake mustaches and shitty Mexican caricature clothing today and got drunk on bad tequila
ok, mr. ivory tower.  everyone will drink fancier tequila when making fun of mexicans.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #54
but those are all specific and clear.  I keep getting the sense there's a broader idea here that any time members of the dominant culture use something from another culture, without permission or something, it's wrong by default.  do I have that right? 

Some people probably view it that way. I don't necessarily think it's bad or wrong by default, but in many circumstances, it can be hurtful or harmful, intentionally or not. In some cases, like with black artists being shut out, some level of harm can't really be undone, but in other cases, it may be something that can dissipate over time as relations between groups change.

Like it's plainly obvious that contact between languages leads to borrowings and influences, naturally. There are dialect continua so people on one side of a border may speak a language that has some things in common with the language immediately on the other side of the border, despite the geopolitical differences or the differences between the official, standard languages.  When the ultimate goal is to communicate effectively, people are going to share and borrow no matter what you try to do to stop it. Even if it's not two technically separate geopolitical groups interacting, there may be minority languages in a society that influence the dominant language in all sorts of ways. None of that is in dispute or bad.

But it also depends on context. There's a difference between the old Scottish heritage affecting the way people in Newfoundland speak or the Scandinavian influence of some upper Midwestern accents and the relationship that Americans have with AAVE/"ebonics." I think things have improved a bit with the latter compared to the moral panic of the 90s, but overall, your average older person still probably considers "ebonics" to be low register and the "broken" speech of uneducated people. Yet chances are the dialect they speak has some AAVE influence in it. So it's okay for people to adopt AAVE words or pronunciation or syntax or morphology as needed for various reasons in various contexts, but it's not okay for the people who normally speak that way to actually speak that way.
ok.  testy and I have reported this back the country club, and everyone decided to approve this as a Real Issue, on a provisional basis.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #55
We will be holding a charity costume party with the proceeds benefiting cultural appropriation awareness in third world countries.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #56
Do you kinda feel you've been pressed to take on the emotional-intellectual labour here, meep?

It's likely no one asking has been particularly affected or even inconvenienced or even have participated knowingly in the topic at hand, but here we are.

Nah, it's cool. This isn't a particularly sensitive topic. It's not even something that's affected me a whole lot directly. The only thing about Argentinian culture that anyone cares about is beef and tango, and I'm not insulted by people imitating tango and making fools out of their dumb asses by doing it poorly and thinking it's hilarious. Just like people imitating flamenco by randomly stomping their feet and yelling OLE. Like, okay, shrug, you have fun looking ridiculous and corny, then, I guess. :v: But I do get irritated when people do this shit to other Latinos who don't get off as easy as Argentinians do or other groups, especially when it annoys my friends.

I've also been guilty of some dumb shit in the past, like when I bought an Orthodox cross necklace in Russia and wore it because I thought it was pretty before thinking, hmm, maybe it's not the most appropriate or respectful thing in the world to be wearing someone else's religious symbol that might make them think I believe in the same things when I think their church is full of shit.

The further North and East you go on this continent, the more rare Hispanic people from Central and South America become. I have met, in my entire life, two Colombians, one very interesting lady Professor from Chile, and one Argentinian artist (who broke a friend's heart, but we can't hold that against him). Nobody here knows enough about any SA cultures to appropriate any of it. Unless you count all the tourists from Canada who go to Mexico and come back with woven cotton blankets and assorted trinkets. I think they make those blankets specifically for Canadians, we're always thinking about being cold, blankets are a natural seller.


  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #58
Poor taste? Yeah, I can understand a bit of Catholic annoyance. I wouldn't hang crucifixes all over myself as a fashion statement. But then yall shouldn't have violently spread it everywhere.

I was bored and looked at a lot of the outfits at that gala. Lots of reeeeallly poorly conceived designs. A few interesting interpretations.

  • meepmeep
  • Administrator
  • zombiecat queen
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #59
Yeah, I have no problem with people not liking some of the dresses because of their religion. Also I don't like some of them because they're fucking ugly and tacky.

But the event was partly sponsored by the literal Catholic Church, and several high figures were at the event and were okay with what was going on. This is a hierarchical religion whose leaders supported the event with money and their participation. That doesn't mean no one's allowed to be annoyed or offended but it's hard to argue insensitivity to the Catholic perspective.

Eta and we all know Zendaya's chainmail Joan of Arc dress was the best.


Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #61
And now, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdPUZQp1bDo

ETA the lady at the end is the best.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #62
Christianity is just a bunch of people appropriating Jewish traditions in the first place. It's no different from white hippies dressing up in Native American jewelry and going on vision quests, except that it's been going on long enough to be a much more serious cultural force.

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #63
Quote
Eta and we all know Zendaya's chainmail Joan of Arc dress was the best.

You know it. Outfit ruled the entire event.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #64
I liked Blake Lively's dress.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #65
Christianity is just a bunch of people appropriating Jewish traditions in the first place. It's no different from white hippies dressing up in Native American jewelry and going on vision quests, except that it's been going on long enough to be a much more serious cultural force.
Highly recommend vision quests. The correct attire is not important.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #66
Maybe.

Quote
At the Lakota Summit V, an international gathering of US and Canadian Lakota, Dakota and Nakota Nations, about 500 representatives from 40 different tribes and bands of the Lakota unanimously passed a "Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality." The following declaration was unanimously passed on June 10, 1993.

Declaration of War Against
Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality

Whereas we are conveners of an ongoing series of comprehensive forums on the abuse and exploitation of Lakota spirituality; and

Whereas we represent the recognized Lakota leaders, traditional elders, and grassroots advocates of the Lakota people; and

Whereas for too long we have suffered the unspeakable indignity of having our most precious Lakota ceremonies and spiritual practices desecrated, mocked and abused by non-Indian "wannabes", hucksters, cultists, commercial profiteers and self-styled "New Age shamans" and their followers; and

Whereas with horror and outrage we see this disgraceful expropriation of our sacred Lakota traditions has reached epidemic proportions in urban areas throughout the country; and

Whereas our Sacred Pipe is being desecrated through the sale of pipestone pipes at flea markets, powwows and "New Age" retail stores; and

Whereas pseudo-religious corporations have been formed to charge people money for admission into phony "sweat lodges and vision quest" programs; and

Whereas sacrilegious "sundances" for non-Indians are being conducted by charlatans and cult leaders who promote abominable and obscene imitations of our sacred Lakota sundance rites; and

Whereas non-Indians have organized themselves into imitation "tribes" assigning themselves make-believe "Indian names" to facilitate their wholesale expropriation and commercialization of our Lakota traditions; and

Whereas academic disciplines have sprung up in colleges and universities institutionalizing the sacrilegious imitation of our spiritual practices by students and instructors under the guise of educational programs in "shamanism"; and
Whereas non-Indian charlatans and "wannabes" are selling books that promote systematic colonization of our Lakota spirituality; and

Whereas the television and film industry continues to saturate the entertainment media with vulgar sensationalist and grossly distorted representations of Lakota spirituality and culture which reinforce the public's negative stereotyping on Indian people and which gravely impair the self-esteem of our children; and

Whereas individuals and groups involved in the "New Age Movement," in the "men's movement," in "neo-paganism" cults and in "shamanism" workshops all have exploited the spiritual traditions of our Lakota people by imitating our ceremonial ways and by mixing such imitation rituals with non-Indian occult practices in an offensive and harmful pseudo-religious hodge-podge; and

Whereas the absurd public posturing of this scandalous assortment of pseudo-Indian charlatans, "wannabes," commercial profiteers, cultists and "New Age shamans" comprises a momentous obstacle in the struggle of traditional Lakota people for an adequate public appraisal of the legitimate political, legal, and spiritual needs of real Lakota people; and

Whereas this exponential exploitation of our Lakota spiritual traditions requires that we take immediate action to defend our most precious Lakota spirituality from further contamination, desecration and abuse;

Therefore We Resolve As Follows:

1. We hereby and henceforth declare war against all persons who persist in exploiting, abusing, and misrepresenting the sacred traditions and spiritual practices of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.

2. We call upon our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota brothers and sisters from reservations, reserves and traditional communities in the United States and Canada to actively and vocally oppose this alarming takeover and systematic destruction of our sacred traditions.

3. We urge our people to coordinate with their tribal members living in urban areas to identify instances in which our sacred traditions are being abused, and then to resist this abuse, utilizing whatever specific tactics necessary and sufficient, for example: demonstrations, boycotts, press conferences, and acts of direct intervention.

4. We especially urge all our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people to take action to prevent our own people from contribution to and enabling abuse of our sacred ceremonies and spiritual practices by outsiders; for as we all know, there are certain ones among our own people who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole.

5. We assert a posture of zero-tolerance for any "white man's shaman" who rises from within our own communities to "authorize" the expropriation of our ceremonial ways by non-Indians, all such "plastic medicine men" are enemies of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.

6. We urge traditional people, tribal leaders, and governing councils of all other Indian Nations, as well as all national Indian organizations, to join us in calling for an immediate end to this rampant exploitation of our respective American Indian sacred traditions by issuing statements denouncing such abuse; for it is not the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people alone whose spiritual practices are being systematically violated by non-Indians.

7. We urge all our Indian brothers and sisters to act decisively and boldly in our present campaign to end the destruction of our sacred traditions, keeping in mind that our highest duty as Indian people: to preserve the purity of our precious traditions for future generations, so that our children and our children's children will survive and prosper in the sacred manner intended for each of our respective peoples by our Creator.

Wilmer Stampede Mesteth; (Oglala Lakota);
Traditional Spiritual Leader & Lakota Culture Instructor;
Oglala Lakota College, Pine Ridge, South Dakota

Darrell Standing Elk; (Sicangu Lakota);
President, Center for the SPIRIT, San Fancisco, California,
& Pine Ridge, South Dakota

Phyllis Swift Hawk; (Kul Wicasa Lakota);
Tiospaye Wounspe Waokiye; Wanblee, South Dakota

http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/articles/ladecwar.htm

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #67
Possibly the attraction western white people have to FN spirituality (and other spiritual traditions/cultures) has something to do with the bleak and depressing options that are the only spiritual paths left open to the majority by Christianity. Few paths or practices are offered to approach spirituality/a sense of god through nature, and yet encounters with nature are often spiritually powerful even for atheists. But if all you have to base your response to such experiences on is Christian theology, you'll be wandering for a long time, because Christianity has been denying such experiences since Christ walked out of the wilderness.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #68
ayup
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #69
To identify yourself as white and Christian is also to associate yourself with cultural conservativism and to more or less conform to cultural expectations. Adopting symbols of other religious traditions is sort of a way for white Christians to present themselves as being anti-conformist and to associate with a religious tradition without the associated cultural significance of oppression and social conservativism that comes with Christianity. In many cases, the specifics of the other religious tradition are not particularly interesting to them so much as that it is (1) a religious tradition and (2) that it doesn't have the associated baggage of christianity.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #70
felt this was relevant


A member of the largest denomination of the largest religion on the planet crying about cultural appropriation is pretty rich.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #71
what was it that the Catholic church did to the Lady of Guadalupe?

  • borealis
  • Administrator
Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #72
To identify yourself as white and Christian is also to associate yourself with cultural conservativism and to more or less conform to cultural expectations. Adopting symbols of other religious traditions is sort of a way for white Christians to present themselves as being anti-conformist and to associate with a religious tradition without the associated cultural significance of oppression and social conservativism that comes with Christianity. In many cases, the specifics of the other religious tradition are not particularly interesting to them so much as that it is (1) a religious tradition and (2) that it doesn't have the associated baggage of christianity.

Yes. Christians, and most people raised with Christian culture aren't going to be able to easily divest themselves of that baggage - it's well attached. How do you escape something driven into your psyche from birth?

I watch local Mi'qmaq people trying to hang on to their culture and language and revive their spiritual roots, and in the middle of every community there's this great blaring white Catholic church building doing violence to every tradition by its very presence. There's no real way of reconciling the two strands of experience, but most of the people try, they've been living with it for many generations now.

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #73
Cultural appropriation seems like a way to throw an insignificant bone to marginalized people. The problems are systemic.
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Cultural appropriation
Reply #74
Cultural appropriation seems like a way to throw an insignificant bone to marginalized people. The problems are systemic.

Allowing marginalized people veto power over the commercialization of their cultural aesthetics, or at least giving their concerns some consideration, seem less like an insignificant bone and more like an actual serious challenge to some of capitalism's deepest assumptions, but whatever.