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Topic: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene (Read 1869 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #175
Wow.  No one line flippant handwaving dismissal?

Is this TR?
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #176
Wow.  No one line flippant handwaving dismissal?

Is this TR?
pity reply
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #177
You really must be bored.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #178
You really must be bored.
pity reply
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #179
Pity pity reply
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #180
More's the pity
While you were getting your PhD in virology, I got my PhD in truth detection. :wave:  Dave Hawkins

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #181
Pity party
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #182
Now that's more like the TR we know and love
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #183
I haven't read this thread but one cool thing about the holocene is the way its sputtery beginning apparently triggered the invention of agriculture and gave rise to the neolithic

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #184
Warmer temps and abundant rain is thought to be the reason agriculture and civilization was possible. 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #185
the initial warmer temps and abundant rain are the reason the human race spread out of the ice age refugia and started eating grains.  the abrupt and temporary refreeze provoked them to develop agriculture as a way to continue the grain-based diet under more difficult conditions.

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #186
there's some hypthesizing of an intermediate stage of "accidental agriculture".  we picked the grains we liked, ate them, pooped them, and then the few of their seeds that survived digestion would sprout and grow again next year.  since we preferred larger seeds (more food) that were easier to pick and didn't fall on the ground (and therefore rot) at the end of the season, we ended up selectively breeding for those properties, probably without realizing it at first.

at some point our previously nomadic ancestors noticed that the same best grains were continually growing in the same spots, and came to visit and spend more and more time there.  eventually, someone recognized the causal connection between seeds and plants and started deliberately planting them.  this required staying in the same place for at least the growing season.

if you're staying in the same place for extended periods, it makes sense to make a bigger and sturdier shelter than a lean-to => first permanent shelters.  if you're going to live off grain that only grows part of the year, maybe make a lot at once and then store some for all year.  but you'll need something to store it in => first pottery.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #187
The first planting is not recorded in any history, but the corn god shows up all over the place in the Americas.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • el jefe
  • asleep till 2020 or 2024
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #188
oh it would be thousands of years before any written records.  and oral history, while it does occasionally surprise us by preserving apparently real information in nonterrible form over a period of centuries, is still unreliable, certainly over that span of time.

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #189
the initial warmer temps and abundant rain are the reason the human race spread out of the ice age refugia and started eating grains.  the abrupt and temporary refreeze provoked them to develop agriculture as a way to continue the grain-based diet under more difficult conditions.
There is also the fact that the Global sea level rose by a total of more than 120 metres.  Combined with the land rebounding in areas that had been covered by more than a mile of ice, this means some regions the coast where man lived rose while others are still falling.

The tropics didn't suffer from glacial rebound, so there, everything that existed on the oceans and bays and river deltas up until around 6000 years ago, was flooded, and now is under water.

Researchers have found ancient cities under the water, which makes sense.  That's Atlantis of a sort. The ancient world was indeed flooded.

  • Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 04:55:16 AM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #190
oh it would be thousands of years before any written records.  and oral history, while it does occasionally surprise us by preserving apparently real information in nonterrible form over a period of centuries, is still unreliable, certainly over that span of time.
But it was, and still is, also "example history", where along with oral instructions, showing each new generation how to plant, fertilize, store, make things and where water is, how to kill or avoid predators (especially other humans), all the things that our ancestors learned and passed on, evolution at work, so that those that survived (our ancestors) were pretty damn good at keeping knowledge and passing it on.

Speaking of, and back to the topic, a new paper by some seriously smart researchers confirms once again (no surprise there) the simple facts about the recent past, as well as the Altithermal period.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #191
Here are the ice core data in question.
http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/ftp/trends/temp/vostok/vostok.1999.temp.dat
The interested reader can see for him/herself that - surprise! - F_X is full of shit.



For some reason the alarmist don't want to believe the climate data from the past.  Most likely because it is used as an argument against current alarm about changes,  which is understandable.  But it's stupid.  It is letting the real deniers control the debate.

Just because it was warmer in the past in no way means we are not in possible danger from our current changing of the entire atmosphere. 



  • Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:57:51 AM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #192
The specific claim you keep repeating, and have failed to defend is that the Global Sea Level was 3 meters higher than the current level.
Many glaciers in Greenland melted during the HCO, and then reformed as temperatures dropped. source

Which is expected, since global temperatures dropped, along with sea levels.
Quote
Hans Tausen Iskappe (Greenland), situated at 82.5°N, 27.5°W, is world's northernmost ice cap. During several field campaigns in the 70s and 90s, its ice thickness was measured, mass balance and meteorological measurements occurred, and a 345 m deep ice core was drilled. From this ice core it is known that the ice cap (largely) disappeared during the Holocene Thermal Maximum.
http://jsedres.geoscienceworld.org/content/66/3/632

Quote
Their age and elevation indicate, instead, a history of higher relative sea level (and subsequent fall) on windward Oahu during the middle to late Holocene. This history is consistent with geophysical models of postglacial geoid subsidence over the equatorial ocean first predicted by Walcott (1972) and later refined by Clark et al. (1978) and Mitrovica and Peltier (1991).
http://jsedres.geoscienceworld.org/content/66/3/632

The argument that all sea level changes was due to other causes (postglacial geoid subsidence) is absurd, since we know the ice grew on Greenland , the Hans Tausen Iskappe being the example impossible to just deny.  An entire ice cap reformed, after melting.  Why would anyone just deny this?

It reeks of something other than science.


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #193
at some point our previously nomadic ancestors noticed that the same best grains were continually growing in the same spots, and came to visit and spend more and more time there.  eventually, someone recognized the causal connection between seeds and plants and started deliberately planting them.
While researching the Neoglacial I discovered several things related to that, both surprising.  Rice was being cultivated 10-14 thousand years ago, and pottery has been dated to 20,000 years ago, both in China.


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #194
at some point our previously nomadic ancestors noticed that the same best grains were continually growing in the same spots, and came to visit and spend more and more time there.  eventually, someone recognized the causal connection between seeds and plants and started deliberately planting them.
While researching the Neoglacial I discovered several things related to that, both surprising.  Rice was being cultivated 10-14 thousand years ago, and pottery has been dated to 20,000 years ago, both in China.
After thinking bout it, there may have been another reason for our ancestors to hang out where the grains were abundant.  That would be an attraction to grazing animals.  After they wiped out all the grazers, the grain crops would explode, and they may have had to eat grains to survive, and just like that agriculture came to be.

Nobody really knows (yet), but in multiple locations, at different times, people figured out that grains were more dependable than hunting.  When the great cooling started (after the Altithermal), the Sahara returned.  Even so, because of the nature of the soil, a lot of water is still under the Sahara.  It's an estimate of course, but according to the best guess there is enough water under the Sahara (currently) to raise the entire world's ocean by .5 meters

When the rains stopped and the desert returned, (around 3,500 years ago) it was because of global climate change. If we do return to the levels of the HCO, the Sahara will once again turn green, as the monsoons reach it again.  Much of the rest of the world might be really fucked (since this would mean a sea level rise and rainfall patterns changing), but Africa might gain about the same land as the entire US currently has. 

I know, I know, nobody really cares.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭