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Topic: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene (Read 1868 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #25
Page 193 in the Encyclopedia of World Climatology does a fantastic job of explaining how we know the changes were global, and what sort of changes happened, from all kinds of evidence.  Unlike the idiot xkcd comic, it's actually educational and interesting.

The climactic optimum (Altithermal) was first discovered by researchers looking at the history of trees.  The timeline was determined by the Swedish varve research, and confirmed by all kinds of other evidence, including sea cores, ice cores and carbon dating. We know it was global, and it was quite a change in climate, globally.

That VoxRat "demands" I educate him on the entire background of the science is what idiots do.  It's a complete waste of time, as the snow debacle proved.
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  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #26
One of the things that we suspect will happen from a warming climate is that Antarctica will gain ice.  (because that's what happened when it was warmer during the Holocene optimum)

Warmer Indian ocean means more snow for the south pole. 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #27
Page 193 in the Encyclopedia of World Climatology does a fantastic job of explaining how we know the changes were global, and what sort of changes happened, from all kinds of evidence. 
The references are pretty old.
Why should we take this as gospel and ignore NOAA?

(And nothing about sea level.)
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #28
One of the things that we suspect will happen from a warming climate is that Antarctica will gain ice.  (because that's what happened when it was warmer during the Holocene optimum)
From your source (page 193, even!)

Quote
In the middle latitudes, glaciers on the mountains almost disappeared during the Hypsithermal. Ice in the Arctic Sea melted away and the ice sheets and glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica shrank in this period.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #29
It's almost like there isn't a consensus about what happened!
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #30
The references are pretty old.
The 2008 update isn't that old, but it does bring up a good point.

As we have observed, what is happening, as well as what happened, can change.  Like Antarctica.  First it's shrinking, then it's growing, then it's hotly debated what it's doing.  (it seems to be gaining ice currently)

Some say it will melt (and oceans will rise), while others say it's gaining mass, so it's decreasing ocean levels.  Then there is the real uncertainty, about what will happen in the future.

So which is it?  Does a warming world mean more or less ice at the south pole?  Greenland?

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #31
It's impossible to know anything.
We should not worry about it.

Don't worry; be happy!
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #32
:hmm:  i'm confused
Science can be hard.  If you don't actually know much about something, as in this case, the Holocene marine transgression, which is why I suggested you look it up in an encyclopedia.  VoxRat represents the idiocy of the current alarmist fuckhead, who decides in advance that he knows what happened, and since no amount of evidence can sway a true believer. It's an exercise in futility, but almost always amusing to watch.

Like a good religious follower, he wants to reverse all the ways science works, and declares an xkcd comic the one truth, and all the scientific data, papers and the entire history of geology and oceanography must be wrong, be cause of reasons.

It's an example of the real skull fucking that alarmists engage in, because facts and reason threaten their beliefs.  I mean, even a source from skepticalscience, the goddamn bible of the true believer, didn't phase him at all.  Like any religious nutjob, something factual like the raised beaches worldwide that show with out any doubt that sea level was around 3 meters higher, for a long time (it's how the beaches formed), just doesn't get through his wall of denial.

He just repeats his same idiot claim (that there is no evidence), so it's a tar baby in essence, the more you try to educate a tar baby, the worse you get stuck in it's sticky covering of ignorance and denial.


Yeah, this doesn't help me at all. I really am being forced to choose the argument from authority here because the deniers aren't making sense. I am not exactly uninformed about Earth sciences or about nonlinear systems modeling issues in general even if I am basically ignorant of the details of climate projections. If your argument is basically the same as Cephus's that the nature of chaotic models is unpredictability, then I understand that objection and can only respond that attractor basins are also a feature of nonlinear systems that tend towards equilibrium. If you have some specific issue with climate science, say, a detail it relies on that is clearly false, then you could present it and I think I would understand. But so far, either I have failed to understand, which is possible, or you have failed to make a compelling case, which seems more likely to me. But my mind is at least partly open to the idea that the models could be fatally flawed. Those flaws ought to be in evidence though and so far I am not seeing that evidence. You are claiming a sea level rise and supporting the claim with evidence of a sea level fall. Can you clarify?
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #33
  VoxRat represents the idiocy of the current alarmist fuckhead, who decides in advance that he knows what happened. Like a good religious follower, he wants to reverse all the ways science works, and declares an xkcd comic the one truth, and all the scientific data, papers and the entire history of geology and oceanography must be wrong, be cause of reasons.
Quote anything I've written that is in any way consistent with this cartoon characterization.

See that?
You can't.
F_X - he's all about the strawman.
Always was; always will be.

Quote
He just repeats his same idiot claim (that there is no evidence),
Nope.
That's not my claim.
Again: quote anywhere I've written that.

:popcorn:
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #34
I think F_X has long since lost the plot on this.
No one has contested there was such a thing as the Holocene Altithermal.
No one has contested that temperatures have risen and fallen over the past several millennia, locally and globally.
No one has contested that sea level has risen and fallen over the past several millennia, locally and globally.
As it happens, he has failed to support his contention that "it is widely known" that sea levels were 3 meters higher, globally, during the optimum/altithermal/hypsithermal whatever you want to call it.

But that's just about F_X's tendency to spew bullshit and not be able to support it with anything other than insults. It has nothing to do with the credibility of current science WRT anthropogenic climate change, or with the policy decisions. The fact that the about to be Trump administration shares F_X's opinions on (1) climate change and (2) the relationship between reality and evidence is deeply troubling, but there it is: the people have spoken. It's F_X's, Ebell's and Trump's take on climate change that will be determining policy. Not mine.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • MikeS
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #35
This is like the "it snows more because it's warmer" idiocy.  You never learned a single thing, in fact the more evidence the more you dug in your heels.
Hmmmm .....
One of the things that we suspect will happen from a warming climate is that Antarctica will gain ice.  (because that's what happened when it was warmer during the Holocene optimum)

Warmer Indian ocean means more snow for the south pole. 
Hmmmm .....

FX is his own Tard fight.

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #36
Lol
Love is like a magic penny
 if you hold it tight you won't have any
if you give it away you'll have so many
they'll be rolling all over the floor

Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #37
This is like the "it snows more because it's warmer" idiocy.  You never learned a single thing, in fact the more evidence the more you dug in your heels.
Hmmmm .....
One of the things that we suspect will happen from a warming climate is that Antarctica will gain ice.  (because that's what happened when it was warmer during the Holocene optimum)

Warmer Indian ocean means more snow for the south pole. 
Hmmmm .....

FX is his own Tard fight.

It's almost like there isn't a consensus about what happened!

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #38
Yeah, this doesn't help me at all. I really am being forced to choose the argument from authority here because the deniers aren't making sense.
No, you are not being forced to do anything.  But yes, deniers don't make any sense.  If you don't use science, that happens.
If you have some specific issue with climate science, say, a detail it relies on that is clearly false, then you could present it and I think I would understand.
I have been specific about why the xkcd comic is nonsense, as well as why science has published many many papers showing why we know sea levels were higher during the Altithermal, as well as why we are taught global average temps were 1 to 2 degrees higher than present.  It doesn't matter, because it's not about science to a denier.
But so far, either I have failed to understand, which is possible, or you have failed to make a compelling case, which seems more likely to me. But my mind is at least partly open to the idea that the models could be fatally flawed. Those flaws ought to be in evidence though and so far I am not seeing that evidence. You are claiming a sea level rise and supporting the claim with evidence of a sea level fall. Can you clarify?
You are going to have to read and learn, nobody can do that for you.  Obviously a college course on the climate history of the Holocene doesn't matter to some people, they think they know better, which is denial.

It makes no sense to deny that the preponderance of evidence is all wrong, and the smoothed curve (the latest hockey stick graph xkcd used) represents reality.  But since it fits with the alarmist agenda, idiots just accept it, defend it, and act like trolls about it.


"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #39
Poor Cassandra.
No one listened to her, either.  :(
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #40
Quote anything I've written that is in any way consistent with this cartoon characterization.
I did.
You're full of shit.
See that?
You can't.

Actually trying to argue with an idiot is useless.  They just can't even see what is on the page, much less ever admit they were wrong.  It's not that they are deceptive, they just are incapable of learning anything, which is why you are an idiot.  For example

The 3-meter higher sea levels in the mid-Holocene does seem to be a minor talking point in the denier blogs, to the point that Skeptical Science did a piece addressing it..
Nonsense, but would anything matter in this regard?

Page 574 of an Encyclopedia?



Encyclopedia of Tidepools and Rocky Shores

In a scientific discussion, an honest person would simply say "thank you, I did not know that".  But if it's involved in global warming?

hahahaha

Not a chance.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #41
Quote anything I've written that is in any way consistent with this cartoon characterization.
I did.
You're full of shit.
See that?
You can't.

< fails to quote anything that supports his insulting cartoon rewrite of the discussion >
The 3-meter higher sea levels in the mid-Holocene does seem to be a minor talking point in the denier blogs, to the point that Skeptical Science did a piece addressing it..
Nonsense, but would anything matter in this regard?

Page 574 of an Encyclopedia?



Encyclopedia of Tidepools and Rocky Shores

"Late Pleistocene climatic maximum with sea levels 3 meters higher than today"

And I'll bet they were even higher during the Cretaceous!
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #42
Still no support for the 3 meters higher than today global sea level thing.
But keep posting your vituperations against your strawman opponents.
(No one will fail to notice that the positions you impute to me are just as made up as the 3 meters thing.)
Wikipedia actually has (currently) both statements, with sources of course.

Both the Holocene being climatic optimum being 1 to 2 degrees warmer than present, as well as the sea level being 3 meters higher than present.  I won't link to it, because the last time I did that some complete asshole went and removed the information, and with Wikipedia being run by idiots in regards to all things climate related, of course the idiots thought this was a good thing.

Stupid fuckheads.

Instead of handwaving away scientific information, one could argue there is uncertainty and dispute over past sea levels, which is how science actually works.

One could present information from page 339 of a scientific text like Quaternary Sea-Level Changes


which shows there isn't a consensus, but still shows the sea level fell from the Altithermal times.

But good lard, how hard would that be?



  • Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 07:41:31 AM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #43
Instead of handwaving away scientific information, one could argue there is uncertainty and dispute over past sea levels, which is how science actually works.
Or one can assert that it is a "widely known" fact that the sea level was 3 m higher, and dismiss all contrary evidence as the  science failure of "deniers" "fuckheads" "true believers" "warmist" and "alarmists"
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #44


See?  It was only 2 meters higher and declined to present levels in a linear way.

Science, it works best when you use it.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #45
There is no compelling evidence that global sea levels were 3 meters higher during the Holocene optimum. Period.
VoxRat started that assertion; I finished it.
:blanksay:

"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #46
Anyway...
To the extent that there is any relevance at all of Holocene Optimum temperatures and sea levels to current questions of climate science and policy, I guess it would be something like "if we survived that documented instance of global warming, why all the hand-wringing and economic disruption in anticipation of another? "  Or perhaps "global temperatures and sea levels rise and fall significantly; nothing to do with CO2"

I submit that either of those conclusions would be < ahem > misguided, but I won't bother to argue a point no one bothers to contest.
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #47
Anyway...
To the extent that there is any relevance at all of Holocene Optimum temperatures and sea levels to current questions of climate science and policy, I guess it would be something like "if we survived that documented instance of global warming, why all the hand-wringing and economic disruption in anticipation of another? "  Or perhaps "global temperatures and sea levels rise and fall significantly; nothing to do with CO2"

I submit that either of those conclusions would be < ahem > misguided, but I won't bother to argue a point no one bothers to contest.
The reason we don't want the climate to reach an Altithermal (or worse) level of warmth is pretty simple.  Sea level rise would mess with property values, shipping, and infrastructure.  It would be a very expensive problem.

The CO2 theory claims CO2 is the main factor in climate change, because just the changes in sunlight (Astronomical theory of climate change) are believed to be too small to cause both the warm periods and glacier building periods of an ice age, which we are currently in.  It's CO2 levels that cause the drastic climate shifts, that's the CO2 theory.

If this is true, we are headed for a very warm planet.  If it's not true, and changes in sunlight is the real driver of climate, we are going to see a drastic cooling because the sun is in a minimum.. 

Even if CO2 is the main factor, when fossil fuels run out, and the cycle completes (2000 years from now) the earth will head back into a glacier building period.
source for bolded statement:Professor Franklin Hadley Cocks


The natural cycles that are thought to cause the ice ages are believed to be enhanced by CO2 and feedbacks from its increase.  That is in essence the CO2 theory, that slight changes in CO2 cause huge changes in climate.

If this is true, we are changing the climate of the planet in an artificial way.  The warmer climate will not match the Holocene climatic optimum, because the cause is different. 

It might be possible (and this is sheer speculation) that a warmer planet from greenhouse forcing will result in colder winters, and warmer summers. What that means for climate change is completely different than the predictions from the CO2 theory. 

Certainly if Cohen is right about his theory, then the changes are not going to be anything like what Plass or Hansen predicted.
  • Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 09:52:03 AM by F X
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭

  • VoxRat
  • wtactualf
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #48
Quote
This means that humanity will be hit by a one-two punch the likes of which we have never seen. Nature is as unforgiving to men as it was to dinosaurs; advanced civilization will not survive unless we develop energy sources that curb the carbon emissions heating the planet today and help us fend off the cold when the ice age comes. Solar, nuclear, and other non-fossil-­fuel energy sources need to be developed now, before carbon emissions get out of hand.
Professor Franklin Hadley Cocks
"I understand Donald Trump better than many people because I really am a lot like him." - Dave Hawkins

  • F X
  • The one and only
Re: Something about the timing and significance of four named periods within the Holocene
Reply #49
Some people would be OK with "advanced civilization" not surviving. 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man."
― Mark Twain 🔭