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Old 08-15-2010, 08:24 PM   #1055016  /  #1
Abdul Alhazred
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Default Non-evolutionary refutation of creationism

I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
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Old 08-15-2010, 08:34 PM   #1055033  /  #2
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has it crossed anyone's mind here that arguing with a creationist is like trying to convince a guy who believes otherwise that a spider-man comic is fiction?
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Old 08-15-2010, 08:36 PM   #1055036  /  #3
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I didn't go immediately to comic books as I am not a nerd, but I have had similar thoughts.
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Old 08-15-2010, 08:59 PM   #1055070  /  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
I get the impression you haven't been lurking much on these forums before you registered. Am I right?
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Old 08-15-2010, 09:42 PM   #1055169  /  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
Yeah, but they will probably just deny any history and archeology that goes against the literal interpretation of the Genesis. For them, Genesis is written history. When I learned of "creationism" I was pretty disturbed by it. I always figured fundamentalists would reject evolution, but I had no idea that people thought the world was 6,000 years old until I saw some creepy christian cult youtube videos.

Searching the net, it appears that they have a lot of bizarre explanations and rationalizations for just about any kind of objection you can think of. Everything ranging from distant starlight, the formation of planets, stars, and chemical elements; the formation of mountains, canyons, and continental drift, the formation of fossils, coal, and oil; radiometric decay etc. They seem to deny it all.
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Old 08-15-2010, 11:05 PM   #1055310  /  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
It sure looks like you have never heard about Gilgamesh. What you write above - about NO written records and about Ovid being a first reference - is wrong. Maybe you'll want to start with the Wiki on this.

Quote:
Bilgames in the earliest text[1]) was the fifth king of Uruk (Early Dynastic II, first dynasty of Uruk), ruling 126 years, according to the Sumerian king list. He was said to be contemporary with some of the earliest archaeologically-known figures, placing his reign ca. 2500 BC. According to the Tummal Inscription,[2] Gilgamesh, and his son Urlugal, rebuilt the sanctuary of the goddess Ninlil, in Tummal, a sacred quarter in her city of Nippur. Gilgamesh is the central character in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the greatest surviving work of early Mesopotamian literature. In the epic his father was Lugalbanda and his mother was Ninsun (whom some call Rimat Ninsun), a goddess. Gilgamesh is described as two parts god and one part man. In Mesopotamian mythology, Gilgamesh is credited with having been a demigod of superhuman strength who built a great city wall to defend his people from external threats and travelled to meet Utnapishtim, the sage who had survived the Great Deluge.
<snip>
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:57 AM   #1055411  /  #7
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There are plenty of flood stories. What exactly is your point? That I didn't mention your particular hobby horse?
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:43 AM   #1055456  /  #8
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Abdul Alhazred! what an honor it is to have the authour of the Necronomicon on our forum Ia Shub-Niggurath!
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:18 AM   #1055498  /  #9
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Abdul Alhazred! what an honor it is to have the authour of the Necronomicon on our forum Ia Shub-Niggurath!
Quote:
The Necronomicon is a fictional grimoire appearing in the stories by horror writer H. P. Lovecraft and his followers. It was first mentioned in Lovecraft's 1924 short story "The Hound",[1] written in 1922, though its purported author, the "Mad Arab" Abdul Alhazred, had been quoted a year earlier in Lovecraft's "The Nameless City".
<snip>
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necronomicon
Great find Tension. Thanks.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:21 AM   #1055504  /  #10
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Abdul Alhazred! what an honor it is to have the authour of the Necronomicon on our forum Ia Shub-Niggurath!
So now that the Hobbit is toast, is Jackson still going to make his version of Mountains of Madness?
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:36 AM   #1055643  /  #11
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I think del toro is going to make at the mountains of madness
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:58 AM   #1055659  /  #12
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
There are plenty of flood stories. What exactly is your point? That I didn't mention your particular hobby horse?
SPOILERS:
boba has miraculously bad reading comprehension.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:14 AM   #1055662  /  #13
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Lovecraft nerds ITT
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:16 AM   #1055707  /  #14
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I think del toro is going to make at the mountains of madness

Ughh, I knew that. The stupid lord of the rings thread corrupted my mind. But the question still stands, with substitution.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:28 AM   #1055732  /  #15
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I think del toro is going to make at the mountains of madness

Ughh, I knew that. The stupid lord of the rings thread corrupted my mind. But the question still stands, with substitution.
That's interesting - the first Hellboy seemed pretty much to fit with the Cthulhu mythos, although the second drew more on ancient Irish mythology
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:39 AM   #1055797  /  #16
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
I didn't go immediately to comic books as I am not a nerd, but I have had similar thoughts.
yeah. That's pretty much it. They're in the same boat as lunar landing deniers. You could take them to the moon personally and show them the landing sites and they would say you telepathically put the images in their brains or something.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:42 AM   #1055801  /  #17
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Originally Posted by Species8472 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
I get the impression you haven't been lurking much on these forums before you registered. Am I right?

it's cool. nice to have a bit of fresh blood.
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:09 PM   #1055905  /  #18
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Abdul Alhazred! what an honor it is to have the authour of the Necronomicon on our forum Ia Shub-Niggurath!
Nah. That was my uncle. Uncle Al .
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:40 PM   #1055937  /  #19
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
all of that stuff was fabricated by angry and insecure atheists with chips on their shoulders....
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:43 PM   #1056005  /  #20
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Quote:
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I didn't go immediately to comic books as I am not a nerd, but I have had similar thoughts.
yeah. That's pretty much it. They're in the same boat as lunar landing deniers. You could take them to the moon personally and show them the landing sites and they would say you telepathically put the images in their brains or something.
There's no way to get the woo out of people's heads other than this, is there?

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Old 08-16-2010, 02:46 PM   #1056010  /  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
I get the impression you haven't been lurking much on these forums before you registered. Am I right?

it's cool. nice to have a bit of fresh blood.
Absolutely.
I just get the impression he thinks we haven't met any creationists yet ...
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:22 PM   #1056062  /  #22
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Originally Posted by cmoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Black View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
I didn't go immediately to comic books as I am not a nerd, but I have had similar thoughts.
yeah. That's pretty much it. They're in the same boat as lunar landing deniers. You could take them to the moon personally and show them the landing sites and they would say you telepathically put the images in their brains or something.
There's no way to get the woo out of people's heads other than this, is there?

I'm Mugatu!

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Old 08-17-2010, 12:41 AM   #1056678  /  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
I didn't go immediately to comic books as I am not a nerd, but I have had similar thoughts.
yeah. That's pretty much it. They're in the same boat as lunar landing deniers. You could take them to the moon personally and show them the landing sites and they would say you telepathically put the images in their brains or something.
Well, it's true, I did.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:50 AM   #1056686  /  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
I specifically mean the usual Christian fundy young earth creationism, including the supposed geology of Noah's flood.

The usual debate is the fundies attacking evolution and the evolution defenders defending. The problem with this approach is the fundies generally don't really understand evolution. So you get a bunch of "why are there still monkeys" type nonsense.

How about another approach to the issue?

You don't really need recourse to the theory of evolution to refute the notion that there was a worldwide flood in historical times. Written records of various cultures (including in the mideast) cover the period without any flood hiatus.

To say nothing of the question of how the kangaroos got home from Mount Ararat.

The classical pagan flood legend (in Ovid) doesn't have a specific chronology, so forget that approach.

Likewise the Adam and Eve story. It is supposed to have happened less than 6000 years ago. There ruins of cities older than that, not to mention continuous written (clay tablet) records.

That is not evolution or even geology. It is archeology and written history.
Unfortunately, Creationists are just as capable of denying archeology and history as they are of denying physics, astronomy, cosmology, geology, paleontology, biology, and genetics.

The only way to win with creationists is to keep pointing out just how wrong they are and laughing at them.
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:58 AM   #1056927  /  #25
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The only way to win with creationists is to keep pointing out just how wrong they are and laughing at them.
In the case of the person being a creationist by default because they're a Christian, it is usually easy to "win". They are creationists out of pure ignorance on the subject of science. In my experience rational argument is sufficient with these people.

But the kind we usually deal with here are different as they have creationism as an essential part of their faith, and faith is highly resistant to reason. There is no "win". However they have one purpose. It makes people have to explain scientific theories in detail, which is highly educational to the rest of us. That itself is a win.
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