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Old 08-16-2010, 01:00 AM   #1055413  /  #1
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Default Irish more Spanish than Celtic?

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The Irish – more Spanish than Celtic?



Scientists have concluded that the Celts did not invade Ireland en masse, nor did they replace an earlier group.

Despite the widely held belief that the Irish are descended from Celts who invaded Ireland about 2,500 years ago, a 2004 genetic research study at Trinity College, Dublin (TCD) appears to argue against it.

The Celtic cultural heritage in Ireland is prolific and informs the common perceptions and beliefs about the national identity and its origins. From traditional cultural sources in language, legend and literature the Celtic influence is strong and can also be found in contemporary culture such as Enya and the Afro Celt Sound System. The research however suggests that our blood if not also some (at least) of our culture can or should be attributed to wider origins: Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and North Africa.

The study, conducted by Dr. Dan Bradley and Brian McEvoy, a Ph.D student conducted this genetic study with the support of the Irish government to determine “whether there was a large incursion by Celtic people 2,500 years ago” as is widely believed.

The scientists compared the DNA samples of 200 volunteers from around Ireland with a genetic database of 8,500 individuals from around Europe. (The Celts came from Central Europe stretching as far as Hungary).

They found that the Irish samples matched those around Britain and the Pyrenees in Spain. There were some matches in Scandinavia and parts of North Africa.

The scientists concluded that ‘the Irish’ genetic makeup stems from the onset of an ice-age around 15,000 years ago that forced prehistoric man back into Spain, Italy and Greece, which were still fairly temperate. When the ice started melting again around 12,000 years ago, people followed the retreating ice northwards as areas became hospitable again.

The TCD study produced a map of Europe with contours linking places that are genetically similar. One contour goes around the edge of the Atlantic touching Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and includes Galicia in Spain as well as the Basque region.

Some archaeologists also doubt that there was a Celtic invasion because few of their artifacts have been found in Ireland.

“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age.” said McEvoy. “They seem to have come up along the coast through Western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts.” We have a much older genetic legacy.

The findings are published in The American Journal of Human Genetics at the University of Chicago.

Does this finally help explain the ‘dark Irish’ phenomenon?
http://killarney-ireland.info/geneal...genealogy.html
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:03 AM   #1055416  /  #2
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:59 AM   #1055472  /  #3
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irish, spanish, celtic, etc. are more cultural constructs than anything else. despite the traditional belief that they correspond to something genetic, it turns there isn't much truth to it. you can't look at someone's dna and say "this guy's german" or "that guy's french." the variability within each population is larger than the differences between them.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:46 PM   #1057066  /  #4
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Hmm... both Spain and Ireland were in trade contact in Roman times. No surprises here.

Oh and Jerome, nice try at trolling.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:02 PM   #1057081  /  #5
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Fairly unsurprising results. My guess would be that thus pattern has little to do with Roman trade routes but rather reflects (as the authors argue) a very ancient population continuity along the Atlantic coast. You might argue, somewhat drastically, that the Irish are Basques who have lost their original language. The interesting question is why the celtic language (which is certainly intrusive, with an origin in central Europe sometime during the Bronze Age) and certain associated cultural traits managed to become established in Ireland despite not being carried by a large wave of settlers.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:03 PM   #1057083  /  #6
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worth reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Ocean-A.../dp/0199240191
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:32 PM   #1057129  /  #7
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Ireland is Spain.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:37 PM   #1057133  /  #8
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The research however suggests that our blood if not also some (at least) of our culture can or should be attributed to wider origins: Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and North Africa.



“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age.”
I wonder why they list Portugal and Spain as separate influences.




Sorry, sorry, it had to be said.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:18 PM   #1057180  /  #9
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Hmm... both Spain and Ireland were in trade contact in Roman times. No surprises here.
Well, that is irrelevant, since they were in trade contacts before and after the Roman times. It has long been known that the populations of the Atlantic coast of Europe from the British Isles to Iberia share physical and cultural traits that identify a common prehistoric origin.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:20 PM   #1057183  /  #10
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The research however suggests that our blood if not also some (at least) of our culture can or should be attributed to wider origins: Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and North Africa.



“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age.”
I wonder why they list Portugal and Spain as separate influences.
Because they were sloppy, since Scandinavia and North Africa demanded an Iberia.




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Sorry, sorry, it had to be said.
It was certainly predictable.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:32 PM   #1057197  /  #11
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You might argue, somewhat drastically, that the Irish are Basques who have lost their original language.
For the sake of world peace and simple sanity don´t ever repeat that, please. Basque nationalists are insane fanatics who have no problem faking archeological and historical evidence or claiming the ancient Egyptians as their ancestors.


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The interesting question is why the celtic language (which is certainly intrusive, with an origin in central Europe sometime during the Bronze Age) and certain associated cultural traits managed to become established in Ireland despite not being carried by a large wave of settlers.
Turkey, Haiti...
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:41 PM   #1057211  /  #12
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worth reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Ocean-A.../dp/0199240191
Interesting, but I wonder why people keep claiming the absurdity that the neoLatin speaking Galicians are a Celtic people, and not, as evidence indicates, a Latin people with a partly (and quite remote) Celtic heritage.

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It will send shock waves through the history world and will radically change our view of the European past.
Sure...
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:05 PM   #1057259  /  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Figuer
For the sake of world peace and simple sanity don´t ever repeat that, please. Basque nationalists are insane fanatics who have no problem faking archeological and historical evidence or claiming the ancient Egyptians as their ancestors.
Granted, but their language (which is in no way related to ancient Egyptian, just for the record) is undoubtedly very ancient and pre-dates the arrival of Indo-European languages such as Celtic and Latin in the region. Maybe it's their insane fanaticism that's kept them going all these millennia...
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:14 PM   #1057281  /  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Ahlberg View Post
Fairly unsurprising results. My guess would be that thus pattern has little to do with Roman trade routes but rather reflects (as the authors argue) a very ancient population continuity along the Atlantic coast. You might argue, somewhat drastically, that the Irish are Basques who have lost their original language. The interesting question is why the celtic language (which is certainly intrusive, with an origin in central Europe sometime during the Bronze Age) and certain associated cultural traits managed to become established in Ireland despite not being carried by a large wave of settlers.
maybe pre-celtic ireland was thinly populated, such that it didn't take a lot of settlers to change the language and culture

also, i have jet black eyebrows, which run on the irish side of my family. this proves the op!
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:40 PM   #1057330  /  #15
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Maybe it's their insane fanaticism that's kept them going all these millennia...
Perhaps, but that fanaticism was previously manifested in producing Spanish reconquistadors and conquistadors, Catholic saints and writers (in Castilian), and not in pretending that a bunch of cow herderding mountaneers speaking a paleolithic curiosity (their word for scissor translates as ´stone that cuts´I am told), constitute some form of superior race.

Last edited by Figuer; 08-17-2010 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:45 PM   #1057340  /  #16
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...maybe pre-celtic ireland was thinly populated, such that it didn't take a lot of settlers to change the language and culture
Doesn´t work, since that scenario means a large ratio of invaders to natives, which is what the study negates.

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....also, i have jet black eyebrows, which run on the irish side of my family. this proves the op!
Absolutely, specially considering that many of my Spanish ancestors were blond and blue eyed...
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:49 PM   #1057348  /  #17
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....also, i have jet black eyebrows, which run on the irish side of my family. this proves the op!
Absolutely, specially considering that many of my Spanish ancestors were blond and blue eyed...
Can't be Spanish... must be Germanic instead.



How about that? Spain is Germany...
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:15 PM   #1057403  /  #18
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....also, i have jet black eyebrows, which run on the irish side of my family. this proves the op!
Absolutely, specially considering that many of my Spanish ancestors were blond and blue eyed...
Can't be Spanish... must be Germanic instead.
The Spanish have a significant Germanic (Goth) component, more relevant than the Arab or Berber.


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How about that? Spain is Germany...
Rather Gothia.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:34 PM   #1057418  /  #19
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irish, spanish, celtic, etc. are more cultural constructs than anything else. despite the traditional belief that they correspond to something genetic, it turns there isn't much truth to it. you can't look at someone's dna and say "this guy's german" or "that guy's french."
I'm pretty sure you can tell in most cases.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:24 PM   #1057547  /  #20
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ITT: we learn that Figuer hates antiassimilation. Oh wait. That's every thread.
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I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:34 PM   #1057554  /  #21
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ITT: we learn that Figuer hates antiassimilation. Oh wait. That's every thread.
Pupu, what does antiassimilation mean in your usage??
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:10 PM   #1057601  /  #22
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Movements that assert local cultural identity at odds with regional unity.
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I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:36 PM   #1057627  /  #23
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Movements that assert local cultural identity at odds with regional unity.
I have nothing against local identities being preserved. I have everything against pseudohistorical nationionalisms. The Basques, which I must assume you are referring to, per context and knowledge of your obsessions, are indistinguishable from their Latin neighbors in both France and Spain (with which they share bloodlines, religion and culture), and have been for centuries. It just happens they preserve their arcane language, which I have nothing against, as long as they realize it is stupid for them to pretend it can substitute Castilian, and absurd of them to try to impose it upon the Latin speakers who have lived in the Basque country since antiquity (presumably before the Basques migrated there from Aquitaine). Politically there has never been a Basque state, although the nationalists are keen on inventing one.
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:51 PM   #1057643  /  #24
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Movements that assert local cultural identity at odds with regional unity.
I have nothing against local identities being preserved. I have everything against pseudohistorical nationionalisms. The Basques, which I must assume you are referring to, per context and knowledge of your obsessions, are indistinguishable from their Latin neighbors in both France and Spain (with which they share bloodlines, religion and culture), and have been for centuries. It just happens they preserve their arcane language, which I have nothing against, as long as they realize it is stupid for them to pretend it can substitute Castilian, and absurd of them to try to impose it upon the Latin speakers who have lived in the Basque country since antiquity (presumably before the Basques migrated there from Aquitaine). Politically there has never been a Basque state, although the nationalists are keen on inventing one.
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I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:56 PM   #1057743  /  #25
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No to what, moron?
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