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Old 02-05-2012, 04:44 PM   #1694564  /  #26
DaveGodfrey
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No. You're completely misunderstanding what Naish is saying. As usual. He's saying that the BCF model predicts that there should be birdlike arms in many more taxa. Is saying nothing about there being "no connection to dinosaurs". That you think he is is a typical example of your own spin and quote-mining.

There are plenty of other characters that firmly nest the maniraptorans within the coelurosaurs. Wing-like arms is not one of them, as it would appear not to be present throughout all maniraptorans- for instance the therizinosaurs are not mentioned as having wing-like arms.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:45 PM   #1694566  /  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
Even when I quote it and bold it, Monad pretends not to get it.
He sees the huge problem that the dino to bird theory has and feels he needs to say something.
But I know from experience that Monad will have some spin response. Getting into an argument with Monad is a waste of time.
I am content to quote Naish and people can spin and tap dance as much as they like. The facts do not change.
Let me ask the question again, exactly where in this blog article is Naish saying "there is no connection whatsoever [of birds] to dinosaurs"? I'm sure Naish would be very surprised to hear that he was arguing this considering the whole article seems to be supporting the dinosaur origin of birds and critiquing alternatives, specifically BCF.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:46 PM   #1694568  /  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGodfrey View Post
No. You're completely misunderstanding what Naish is saying.
Misrepresenting would be more accurate - blatant lying through his teeth even more
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:00 PM   #1694588  /  #29
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I kind of feel sorry for the folks here. Naish has cut the legs off underneath you.
But he has simply told the truth.

But this has been helpful for me, because I am starting to see that not all creatures that are labelled "maniraptor" are ancestors of birds.
As Naish has pointed out the start of the bird line is at oviraptor/paraves:
Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:04 PM   #1694592  /  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
I kind of feel sorry for the folks here. Naish has cut the legs off underneath you.
But he has simply told the truth.
Perhaps, but clearly you are not
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:15 PM   #1694605  /  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
I kind of feel sorry for the folks here. Naish has cut the legs off underneath you.
But he has simply told the truth.

But this has been helpful for me, becasue I am starting to see that not all creatures that are labelled "maniraptor" are ancestors of birds.
As Naish has pointed out the start of the bird line is at oviraptor/paraves:
Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade
I have reviewed the pterosaur to bird lineages that I have proposed to this point* and am pleased that the only taxa I include before the oviraptor/paraves point is the Ornithomimosaurs (which I have as the ancestors of FLIGHTLESS birds).

In other words, I do not include such taxa as Ornitholestes, Therizinosaurs, Alvaresaurids etc. which are labelled as maniraptors but are not actually on the pterosaur to bird line I have proposed.


* http://pterosaurnet.blogspot.com/201...ategories.html
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:21 PM   #1694612  /  #32
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Quote:
I have reviewed the pterosaur to bird lineages that I have proposed to this point* and am pleased that the only taxa I include before the oviraptor/paraves point is the Ornithomimosaurs (which I have as the ancestors of FLIGHTLESS birds).

In other words, I do not include such taxa as Ornitholestes, Therizinosaurs, Alvaresaurids etc. which are labelled as maniraptors but are not actually on the pterosaur to bird line I have proposed.


* http://pterosaurnet.blogspot.com/201...ategories.html
And the Ornithomimosaurs are not even before the oviraptor/paraves.
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:24 PM   #1694614  /  #33
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I have been saying that maniraptors are primitive birds. I should be saying that some of the taxa labelled as maniraptor are primitive birds.
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:34 PM   #1694628  /  #34
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Why are you blatantly lying about what Naish says? Is it because you have nothing else to support your stupid idea?
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:37 PM   #1694632  /  #35
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Naish:
Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade"
I wonder if the folks here are disputing this.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:16 PM   #1694659  /  #36
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Naish:
Quote:
there is no evidence that wing-like arms were present in more basal coelurosaurs, nor in other theropods, or other dinosaurs, or other archosaurs.
I wonder if people here are disputing this.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:55 PM   #1694780  /  #37
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Naish:
Quote:
"there is no evidence that wing-like arms were present in more basal coelurosaurs, nor in other theropods, or other dinosaurs, or other archosaurs".
Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade"
Looks like nobody is disputing these. That is a good start.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:55 PM   #1694782  /  #38
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Quote:
But this has been helpful for me, because I am starting to see that not all creatures that are labelled "maniraptor" are ancestors of birds.
This has been clear to everyone else for a very long time. I'm glad you've finally noticed what you have been told multiple times.

That wing-like arms are not present in all maniraptorans is not a problem. You have been told this sort of thing multiple times. It is a "trait" (although its so poorly defined that you couldn't call it a character) that appears within the maniraptorans. Not all of them have it. It is not evidence that maniraptorans are not theropods, even if you wish it was.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:57 PM   #1694786  /  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
Naish:
Quote:
"there is no evidence that wing-like arms were present in more basal coelurosaurs, nor in other theropods, or other dinosaurs, or other archosaurs".
Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade"
Looks like nobody is disputing these. That is a good start.
Why are you blatantly lying about what Naish is saying? That quote is about a prediction of the BCF hypothesis. That we do not see this is evidence against the BCF hypothesis. It is in no way evidence for your stupid idea that maniraptorans aren't theropods.
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:00 PM   #1694788  /  #40
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Poor Dave Godfrey. He always seems to be confused.

Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade"

"there is no evidence that wing-like arms were present in more basal coelurosaurs, nor in other theropods, or other dinosaurs, or other archosaurs"
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:12 PM   #1694797  /  #41
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How is this evidence that maniraptorans are not theropods?

Bipedality evolved somewhere round about the base of the hominid + gorilla clade.Bipedality is not present in more basal cercopithecines. Nor other primates, or other placentals, or other mammals. Therefore humans aren't mammals.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:27 AM   #1695161  /  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
Naish:
Quote:
"there is no evidence that wing-like arms were present in more basal coelurosaurs, nor in other theropods, or other dinosaurs, or other archosaurs".
Quote:
"feathered arms essentially the same as those present in basal birds evolved somewhere round about the base of the oviraptorosaur + paravian clade"
Looks like nobody is disputing these. That is a good start.
Does anybody acknowledge that this means that the primitive birds from the oviraptor/paraves onward (to modern birds) had wing arms that no dinosaur had?
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:15 AM   #1695257  /  #43
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I knew this was coming eventually. Now instead of the absurdity that pterosaurs evolved into maniraptors that just so happened to be almost anatomically identical to basal theropods, we're going to get the even stupider idea that maniraptors is a polyphyletic group made up of both pterosaurs and theropods.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:29 AM   #1695285  /  #44
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Tiptoe does not seem to get it or is pretending not to get it.
Can anyone grasp the simple points that Naish is making?
(Is it really that difficult)?
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:00 AM   #1695326  /  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
Tiptoe does not seem to get it or is pretending not to get it.
Can anyone grasp the simple points that Naish is making?
(Is it really that difficult)?
I grasp it; Naish is saying you are a pathetic moron knownothing dishonest idiot who is providing a lot of entertainment to whomever is willing to remember that discussing with you in good faith is a monumental waste of time.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:02 AM   #1695442  /  #46
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Nice try.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:25 AM   #1695453  /  #47
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that wasn't a try... nor nice...
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:34 AM   #1695648  /  #48
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Everyone grasps the simple points Naish is making. Apart from you. Because they have no relevance to your stupid pterobird nonsense.

Pterosaurs don't have "birdlike" arms either. Therefore maniraptorans aren't pterosaurs. Congratulations, you've just proved your own ideas wrong.
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:32 AM   #1695662  /  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGodfrey View Post
Everyone grasps the simple points Naish is making. Apart from you. Because they have no relevance to your stupid pterobird nonsense.

Pterosaurs don't have "birdlike" arms either. Therefore maniraptorans aren't pterosaurs. Congratulations, you've just proved your own ideas wrong.
In the "Socratic" spirit of discussion, you should really quote yourself several time saying that, DaveGodfrey.

It MIGHT just sink in.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:04 AM   #1695665  /  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damitall View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGodfrey View Post
Everyone grasps the simple points Naish is making. Apart from you. Because they have no relevance to your stupid pterobird nonsense.

Pterosaurs don't have "birdlike" arms either. Therefore maniraptorans aren't pterosaurs. Congratulations, you've just proved your own ideas wrong.
In the "Socratic" spirit of discussion, you should really quote yourself several time saying that, DaveGodfrey.

It MIGHT just sink in.
In fact Naish includes "other archosaurs" in that statement. The point is he is not saying there is no connection between dinosaurs and birds, that would be absurd given the context of the article, just that previous groups did not have bird type wings because of course they evolved within maniraptora (which almost everyone had already surmised apart from the BCF people to whom he is addressing this point)
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