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Old 02-27-2012, 01:38 AM   #1719591  /  #851
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humber is still under the delusion that the cart does not advance up the belt
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:01 AM   #1719617  /  #852
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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
humber is still under the delusion that the cart does not advance up the belt
When at WS, the cart travels no faster with respect to the belt than an object sitting on the ground does, so you have to agree that the ball matches that, or does not travel at all.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:09 AM   #1719622  /  #853
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Originally Posted by humber View Post
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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
humber is still under the delusion that the cart does not advance up the belt
When at WS, the cart travels no faster with respect to the belt than an object sitting on the ground does, so you have to agree that the ball matches that, or does not travel at all.
No, the ball does not match that. And the cart only "hovers" with respect to the ground when forced to do so by lower belt speeds and/or higher incline angles.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:16 AM   #1719632  /  #854
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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
No, the ball does not match that.
Oh, yes it does. That ball video really hurts, doesn't it?


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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
And the cart only "hovers" with respect to the ground when forced to do so by lower belt speeds and/or higher incline angles.
And don't forget that the cart often goes backwards, and that the vibratory conveyer beats that, and climbs even steeper gradients.

The difference from stationary is 0.1m/s wrt the ground. Hamster power.

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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:20 AM   #1719637  /  #855
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And by the way. the first reference to a prop cart on a belt, dates back to 1948.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:33 AM   #1719644  /  #856
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Originally Posted by humber View Post
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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
No, the ball does not match that.
Oh, yes it does.
No, it doesn't, and you are a blind idiot to think it does.

Quote:
That ball video really hurts, doesn't it?
Only your own "case" is hurt you dipshit.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
And the cart only "hovers" with respect to the ground when forced to do so by lower belt speeds and/or higher incline angles.
And don't forget that the cart often goes backwards,
when pushed backwards, yep. So what? The ball only goes forward when pushed, and works backwards the rest of the time.

Quote:
and that the vibratory conveyer beats that, and climbs even steeper gradients.
Who gives a shit? Only a complete moron would compare a coin going up a stationary vibratory conveyer with a wheeled cart going up a running treadmill against the belt's motion.

Quote:
The difference from stationary is 0.1m/s wrt the ground. Hamster power.
That isn't even relevant you dipshit. The existence of any positive force at all after other causes are controlled for proves the concept.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:51 AM   #1719657  /  #857
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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
Quote:
And don't forget that the cart often goes backwards,
when pushed backwards, yep. So what? The ball only goes forward when pushed, and works backwards the rest of the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
Quote:
and that the vibratory conveyer beats that, and climbs even steeper gradients.
Who gives a shit? Only a complete moron would compare a coin going up a stationary vibratory conveyer with a wheeled cart going up a running treadmill against the belt's motion.
The pills do much better than that.

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Quote:
The difference from stationary is 0.1m/s wrt the ground. Hamster power.
That isn't even relevant you dipshit. The existence of any positive force at all after other causes are controlled for proves the concept.
It shows how little power is needed to move along a belt. The ball will be consuming virtually nothing, but the cart consumes 1W. The ball is way more efficient than the cart, and does much the same thing.

That ball video really hurts, doesn't it?
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:05 AM   #1719676  /  #858
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I've mentioned before that I expected the NALSA results to show about 1.2 times ws. Results indicating BB was able to sustain an apparent headwind nearly 3 times the speed of the tailwind providing the energy to do so imho goes beyond counter-intuitive. I'm able to accept, within certain parameters, that it happened. I simply question whether it could genuinely represent steady state. It certainly exceeded Bauer's estimates on his runs. Still, it does stretch my credulity that Bob Dill could have been so far off that even if the ratio was inflated the correct SS numbers wouldn't have still been above ws.

By far my biggest setback in fully accepting ddw.. was when I saw I Ratant's 4 videos of his cart being so easily outrun by the packing popcorn. Like the El Mirage results, it just seems so unlikely Paul could have missed the mark to that extent in constructing his cart. It had the same gear ratio as spork's, and is RC so he could control it's direction.

IR (Paul) is a quite experienced aerodynamics model enthusiasts. You will find numerous videos of his different experiments HERE. Below is a picture of his cart.





You won't find Paul's videos of his cart being blown away by the popcorn among the others, but many of the carteers did see it and have acknowledged doing so. He later deleted them as he had become disgusted with the insulting comments being made on the JREF thread humber had revived just last year, and didn't want to participate further.

I can see the possibility Paul didn't use a large enough prop or that with the RC and all it weighed too much. It really took off quickly though, and even after a 30 yard head start the foam blew right past it. Like Dill with BB, it just seems implausible such an experienced model builder could have been so far off the mark. [raise flame shield. How many times do we have to explain it to you yada-yada. ]
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:09 AM   #1719682  /  #859
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Humber thinks gravity isn't pushing the cart backwards in that video.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:22 AM   #1719695  /  #860
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
I've mentioned before that I expected the NALSA results to show about 1.2 times ws. Results indicating BB was able to sustain an apparent headwind nearly 3 times the speed of the tailwind providing the energy to do so imho goes beyond counter-intuitive. I'm able to accept, within certain parameters, that it happened. I simply question whether it could genuinely represent steady state. It certainly exceeded Bauer's estimates on his runs. Still, it does stretch my credulity that Bob Dill could have been so far off that even if the ratio was inflated the correct SS numbers wouldn't have still been above ws.
It was pushed to >WS, BTW, so the feat is not something extraordinary, no matter how achieved.

Initially, the rules stated that the cart must follow the wind, but the constantly changing wind direction made that impossible. Then, as Spork posted, NALSA agreed that the cart could stay on a fixed heading for the next day, and the rules were updated on the day of the record run.

Why would NALSA do that?

Spork convinced Dill, (and only he was necessary), that even in a changing wind, the cart would perform better during any periods when the cart and wind direction happened to coincide. That is, to lend the idea that the changing winds were not of benefit to the cart, but to its detriment.

But, the reality is, that cart is worst when ddw. That leaves open the opportunity to use the brake or pitch control to make the cart worse, when not ddw, and then, when the tell tale says "ddw" don't do that. Hey. presto, for a few seconds, it's "better", after first being allowed to get to speed well away from ddw. You are right; the record is not steady state, but a flash in the pan, due to chance and manipulation.

That explains why when the wind drops from 15mph to 10mph, just before the so-called "record window", the cart does not slow, and also why NALSA paid no heed to what happens to the cart before that period.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:34 AM   #1719706  /  #861
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Originally Posted by Llyricist View Post
Humber thinks gravity isn't pushing the cart backwards in that video.
The power to raise the cart in the gravitational field can be measured in milli-watts, but it consumes 1W. Keep trying to wish away the embarrassing ball. You've been had by a plagiarist cheat.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:44 AM   #1719716  /  #862
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But, the reality is, that cart is worst when ddw. That leaves open the opportunity to use the brake or pitch control to make the cart worse, when not ddw, and then, when the tell tale says "ddw" don't do that. Hey. presto, for a few seconds, it's "better"
Good stuff Humber! We haven't seen some of the old style gibberish for a week or two now. Thanks, I've read it a few times already and it just keeps getting funnier.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:51 AM   #1719723  /  #863
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By far my biggest setback in fully accepting ddw..
Just a few doubts remaining, right RP?

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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
was when I saw I Ratant's 4 videos of his cart being so easily outrun by the packing popcorn. Like the El Mirage results, it just seems so unlikely Paul could have missed the mark to that extent in constructing his cart.
Poor dumb RP. He just can't believe they sold him a defective car.

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Old 02-27-2012, 03:56 AM   #1719728  /  #864
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But, the reality is, that cart is worst when ddw. That leaves open the opportunity to use the brake or pitch control to make the cart worse, when not ddw, and then, when the tell tale says "ddw" don't do that. Hey. presto, for a few seconds, it's "better"
Good stuff Humber! We haven't seen some of the old style gibberish for a week or two now. Thanks, I've read it a few times already and it just keeps getting funnier.
When the trial was over, Spork was allowed to process the data, and select what he wanted to be the record, so leaving plenty of opportunity to change a thing or ten. Rather like a school letting a students grade their own examination papers.

It's all bullshit, and was when Bauer did it. He did the same. One private trial, where he made the rules and took all measurements, and the cart was never run again. An odd thing to do, when he was still holding to the claim and the treadmill against skepticism, until at least 1995.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:58 AM   #1719729  /  #865
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Did anyone check the seismic records for the dry lake bed?
Remember the good old days when humber claimed we were going downhill on the dry lake bed at Ivanpah!? I'm not sure when they started making dry lake beds that aren't level, but we went one way the first day and almost exactly the opposite way the second day. The wind just happened to work out that way (so I guess we were going uphill on day two )
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:10 AM   #1719740  /  #866
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RP still does not know what was wrong with I Ratant's cart, even though the Blackbird team did offer to tell him, if old Ratty boy dropped the attitude. Of course humber would never catch on and never will.

humber, once again you chose the video with the treadmill going at the slowest possible speed for the cart to work. They set it at a low speed so the cart would not go up the belt for that particular video. I know you will never understand a Galilean Transformation but a low treadmill speed corresponds to a low wind speed. The cart needs a minimum wind to work. If the wind goes faster than that it will work even better. If it is slower than that the cart will go slower than the wind, if at all. What is so hard to grasp about this concept?
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:12 AM   #1719744  /  #867
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Did anyone check the seismic records for the dry lake bed?
Remember the good old days when humber claimed we were going downhill on the dry lake bed at Ivanpah!? I'm not sure when they started making dry lake beds that aren't level, but we went one way the first day and almost exactly the opposite way the second day. The wind just happened to work out that way (so I guess we were going uphill on day two )
Maybe Ivanpah is one of those mysterious gravity areas where it is downhill both directions
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:14 AM   #1719748  /  #868
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RP still does not know what was wrong with I Ratant's cart...
Something wrong with I Ratant's cart!? Unthinkable. I'm told he's an experienced aerodynamicist and R/C model builder.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:19 AM   #1719751  /  #869
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Did anyone check the seismic records for the dry lake bed?
Remember the good old days when humber claimed we were going downhill on the dry lake bed at Ivanpah!? I'm not sure when they started making dry lake beds that aren't level, but we went one way the first day and almost exactly the opposite way the second day. The wind just happened to work out that way (so I guess we were going uphill on day two )
I never made any claims about the level, but I do remember that you claimed that the cart cold travel directly ddw, steady state.
In wind tunnel conditions. Hardly comparable to reality, in either case.

But, there is plenty of hard numerical evidence, showing that the cart is ponderously slow until the wind changes direction, and that you manipulated and filtered the data.

I have the post where you said NALSA agreed you could maintain a steady heading as the wind changes It is only a matter of repeating the trial until luck leaves you with a few seconds of what appears to be closer to ddw, and claim that short period from the remainder of the time the cart takes to get from being pushed to 11mph, to the end of the run.
The claimed 2.8WS is only achieved, because the windspeed fell from 15mph to 10mph as the massive 650lb cart continued at much the same speed on its momentum, and the energy of 7 to 10 degrees that remains between the cart and the wind.


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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:30 AM   #1719757  /  #870
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humber, please explain this: During the period of time that the record was based upon the cart was always within a few degrees of DDW, the cart was going roughly 2.8 times the speed of the wind and accelerated during that period of time.

How does humberphysics account for these facts? NALSA has the same raw data that spork has. He may have been allowed to choose the best run, and all I can say to that is Well Duh!. You will have to ask Richard Jenkins if they cheated the same way for him. Did they make him choose a run where the wind was running at a low speed or did they allow him to choose the run with the best wind speed for his vehicle. Yep, sounds suspicious to me. I wonder what other cheats they allow their record holders. Hmm, I wonder if they let other land yachts use wheels instead of a keel and a rudder like "real" sailing vehicles use. I think we may have to throw out all of their records.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:30 AM   #1719758  /  #871
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RP still does not know what was wrong with I Ratant's cart...
Something wrong with I Ratant's cart!? Unthinkable. I'm told he's an experienced aerodynamicist and R/C model builder.
He's a lot better than you, and you have added nothing to what Bauer, Gooodman, Mark C, had already done. There were prop-powered boats, where the prop drives a rotor in the water,, in 1913. A prop bike, 1898.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:37 AM   #1719764  /  #872
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Originally Posted by humber View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spork View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by semper View Post
Did anyone check the seismic records for the dry lake bed?
Remember the good old days when humber claimed we were going downhill on the dry lake bed at Ivanpah!? I'm not sure when they started making dry lake beds that aren't level, but we went one way the first day and almost exactly the opposite way the second day. The wind just happened to work out that way (so I guess we were going uphill on day two )
I never made any claims about the level, but I do remember that you claimed that the cart cold travel directly ddw, steady state.
In wind tunnel conditions. Hardly comparable to reality, in either case.

But, there is plenty of hard numerical evidence, showing that the cart is ponderously slow until the wind changes direction, and that you manipulated and filtered the data.

I have the post where you said NALSA agreed you could maintain a steady heading as the wind changes It is only a matter of repeating the trial until luck leaves you with a few seconds of what appears to be closer to ddw, and claim that short period from the remainder of the time the cart takes to get from being pushed to 11mph, to the end of the run.
The claimed 2.8WS is only achieved, because the windspeed fell from 15mph to 10mph as the massive 650lb cart continued at much the same speed on its momentum, and the energy of 7 to 10 degrees that remains between the cart and the wind.


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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:20 AM   #1719790  /  #873
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humber, please explain this: During the period of time that the record was based upon the cart was always within a few degrees of DDW, the cart was going roughly 2.8 times the speed of the wind and accelerated during that period of time.
The cart was traveling at close to the record speed of ~28mph, in the 15mph wind that was present prior to the record window, at which point, the ratio would be 28/15 ~ 1.8WS. The windspeed then very suddenly dropped to 10mph so the ratio becomes 2.8WS, but the cart is at the same speed that it gained from not being ddw and the 15mph boost. It has a lot of momentum, and the ease at which is is pushed, shows that rolling losses are quite low.

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How does humberphysics account for these facts? NALSA has the same raw data that spork has. He may have been allowed to choose the best run, and all I can say to that is Well Duh!.
But, when conditions change, and chance in involved, selection of the result, is cherry-picking. Like throwing a lot of darts, and ignoring the misses, but claiming the one bull's eye as being representative.

It is just as important to note that the bulk of the data shows that the cart fails when it close to ddw, and 2.8Ws is a never otherwise achieved. The cart is pushed to about 11mph, it then coasts at that speed, until the wind changes 17 degrees, and then the cart accelerates at 0.1ms-2, and remains that way, whereas pushing, achieves 0.4ms-2. Four times the average acceleration. The result of "the torque of a Corvette" I presume?

The wind during the 10s record window is still changing direction, but is averaged over that same 10 second period ( the 10 rolling average data has been shifted to become synchronous with the 10s record window) and that makes the change look much less than it really is. That shift is a clear difference between the raw data, and the data used to determine the record. That you can see as a difference in the data that Bob Dill posted, and the chart in the Observer's report which Spork prepared.

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You will have to ask Richard Jenkins if they cheated the same way for him.
Jenkins' cart does not follow the wind, but tacks. His is a landspeed, not a windspeed record, and that needs only GPS to measure.

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Did they make him choose a run where the wind was running at a low speed or did they allow him to choose the run with the best wind speed for his vehicle.
He achieved even higher speeds, but chose not to run it again like that, because of the risk of damage.
But, again, there is no restriction on the path any landspeed cart may take.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:52 AM   #1719802  /  #874
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
I've mentioned before that I expected the NALSA results to show about 1.2 times ws. Results indicating BB was able to sustain an apparent headwind nearly 3 times the speed of the tailwind providing the energy to do so imho goes beyond counter-intuitive. I'm able to accept, within certain parameters, that it happened. I simply question whether it could genuinely represent steady state. It certainly exceeded Bauer's estimates on his runs. Still, it does stretch my credulity that Bob Dill could have been so far off that even if the ratio was inflated the correct SS numbers wouldn't have still been above ws.

By far my biggest setback in fully accepting ddw.. was when I saw I Ratant's 4 videos of his cart being so easily outrun by the packing popcorn. Like the El Mirage results, it just seems so unlikely Paul could have missed the mark to that extent in constructing his cart. It had the same gear ratio as spork's, and is RC so he could control it's direction.

IR (Paul) is a quite experienced aerodynamics model enthusiasts. You will find numerous videos of his different experiments HERE. Below is a picture of his cart.





You won't find Paul's videos of his cart being blown away by the popcorn among the others, but many of the carteers did see it and have acknowledged doing so. He later deleted them as he had become disgusted with the insulting comments being made on the JREF thread humber had revived just last year, and didn't want to participate further.

I can see the possibility Paul didn't use a large enough prop or that with the RC and all it weighed too much. It really took off quickly though, and even after a 30 yard head start the foam blew right past it. Like Dill with BB, it just seems implausible such an experienced model builder could have been so far off the mark. [raise flame shield. How many times do we have to explain it to you yada-yada. ]
I saw that video when it was still available, and indeed the popcorn blew right past the cart, even though the cart had been given a head start and more than enough time to accelerate to it’s maximum speed. The popcorn was moving at least twice as fast as the cart was, and the popcorn wasn’t moving as fast as the wind!

That is the sort of evidence that is definitive, easily understood and hard to dismiss. What the cart clowns offer is nothing but voodoo and bullshit. You will never see them test one of their carts against something like popcorn or smoke puffs, because they know it will reveal the big LIE they have been telling for so long.

And, when a ball is seen on the treadmill, doing what the cart does, suddenly the cart clowns claim that a ball can move at wind speed, rather than admit that a moving treadmill belt, which is rotating periodically as well as vibrating, is not equivalent to a flat surface that is in uniform motion.

But it seems finally all the LIES are starting to catch up with tiny sporky, a pathetic and weak character would literally steal candy from a baby!

Hey, sporky, did your entry win the big prize, taking it away from someone more deserving than a fraud like you? Or did you pull some strings to have the Rules changed, like you did with nalsa? Have you informed the contest sponsors of the fact you copied the idea from Andrew Bauer? Did you inform them of the participation of the students from SJSU? How about the fact that it was a sponsored project (Google and Cranky Energy)?

You would accept the prize anyway, and take it away from some honest kid who built something with his own hands and own ideas, wouldn’t you? You are disgusting, spork!
__________________
Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.
Sporky: The joke is not on me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:31 AM   #1719820  /  #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
And, when a ball is seen on the treadmill, doing what the cart does, suddenly the cart clowns claim that a ball can move at wind speed, rather than admit that a moving treadmill belt, which is rotating periodically as well as vibrating, is not equivalent to a flat surface that is in uniform motion.
That is really funny. When the ball touches the side of the TM for a short period, it becomes "blessed" and can thereafter be at windspeed, and not just spinning. It is very much like the cart, and they know it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
You would accept the prize anyway, and take it away from some honest kid who built something with his own hands and own ideas, wouldn’t you? You are disgusting, spork!
Disgusting indeed. An overpaid fat-cat, who would tear the CNC machine from a child's hands, rather than buy or make the thing for himself. Fortunately, the cart has dropped from the top ten list.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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