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02-26-2012, 12:44 PM   #1719002  /  #126
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by d-_-b oh and the Freezetracks in Logic will save you from having to bounce tracks. Freezetracking pre-renders an entire track before playback and keeps it frozen until you choose to change something in the track.
That sounds useful.

Quote:
 With a quad i7, I haven't had to freezetrack in a long time, but I can see someone getting generous with reverb plugins needing it
Reverb is for pussies.

I take it the reason reverb uses a lot more cpu is because it's a looped-back effect, whereas things like compression are once-through.

 02-26-2012, 06:13 PM #1719200  /  #127 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 no modern reverbs are not looped effects; besides,feedback does not use much cpu power. it's the convolution or impulse response algorythm that chews up cpu. The original implementation of the IR algorythm works like this: go into a big chamber, fire a starter pistol, record the entire reverb tail using lab-quality microphones. To add said reverb to a channel, basically you would take every sample and multiply the reverb tail by that sample's value simultaneously, so the result is 96000 reverb tails per second overlapping perpetually. Considering the size of some reverb tails in a cathedral for example, you're looking at a composite of potential maybe 9 second reverb tails, 96000 times/second. That's a composite realtime bounce of 864,000 layers running constantly....in stereo: 1,728,000 layers. That's an IR reverb. Newer IR reverbs are more efficient since someone actually transformed it into calculus. Convolution reverbs essentially multiply FFT's as wide as the nyquist against the spectrum of the signal. Convolution reverbs also begin with a prerecorded sample, typically a white noise burst recorded in a chamber. The #of bands in the FFT ultimately determines how much its gonna warm up your cpu.
 02-27-2012, 11:53 AM #1719914  /  #128 Requiescat in pace Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,286 I see. Makes a lot more sense than the way I'd imagined it.
 02-27-2012, 05:52 PM #1720201  /  #129 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 you maybe imagined a zillion digital delays? there's some cases where that's actually done. Someone built a proof-of-concept "raytracing reverb" in a linux cluster using an IDE known as C-Sound. Basically they created 3d model of a walk-through interior and the surfaces are covered in a grid. Every square in the grid represents a digital delay with eq, diffuser, and feedback settings. The signal is bounced around like a thousand pinballs. So much cpu power.
02-28-2012, 12:09 AM   #1720671  /  #130
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by d-_-b you maybe imagined a zillion digital delays?
Lol, not quite as bad. Obviously I hadn't thought it through very much digitally but I imagined just splitting the output signal and feeding it back in through a delay/damper, so there was a constant stream of residual 'echo'. The different chamber effects would be achieved by changing the delay/damping. This wouldn't work, I realise, though you would get an effect, it would be more like a muffled delay I suppose, because it's still a linear thing.

I played with a guy who had an old style tape loop delay thingy once, that was interesting. Had an amp with spring reverb around the same time which sounded quite good if you kicked it during the fadeout on a power chord.

Quote:
 there's some cases where that's actually done. Someone built a proof-of-concept "raytracing reverb" in a linux cluster using an IDE known as C-Sound. Basically they created 3d model of a walk-through interior and the surfaces are covered in a grid. Every square in the grid represents a digital delay with eq, diffuser, and feedback settings. The signal is bounced around like a thousand pinballs. So much cpu power.
Did they create a generalised distribution to handle the spatial effects statistically, or did they perform a separate calculation for every single square no matter how many others were acting similarly at the same time?

If not I wonder whether it comes out that it's possible to do so without losing anything audible.

 02-28-2012, 06:41 AM #1720938  /  #131 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 every last square in the surface matrix was an active delay line/dsp. Apparently from a hollywood perspective it was a really cool idea because you could build a model of an existing set that includes surface textures and just track the position and direction of the actors/audio sources. Unfortunately the amount of cpu power it needs to pull this off in realtime is ridiculous. I guess one of the harsher processes was the spectral-sensitive diffusion transients. Different textures produce different 3d directional characteristics. Even throwing this from a flat surface is complex, but the moment you add curves and geometric complexity, everything redlines. So there's an expensive boundary. Last edited by PlaceboMessiah; 02-28-2012 at 07:15 AM.
 03-10-2012, 12:32 AM #1734150  /  #132 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 Found this in a store today. if you were curious about how much a real 16 channel mixer costs, this is an old used one from 1979: http://www.vintagekeysandpercussion....product_id=219
03-10-2012, 12:39 AM   #1734173  /  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-_-b
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy Oliver
Quote:
 Originally Posted by d-_-b are you referring to audio interfaces as cards or are you seriously considering an audio card to go inside the computer?
The audio-interface cards? Not a good idea? Haven't really paid much attention to them, but I'm guessing from your reaction that an external unit is the way to go anyway.
Latency is an issue which prevents successful multitracking. The sound signal conversion on an internal.sound card competes with the computers' other processes for resources and you get latency. I suppose the make ones with onboard processors or something but its been quite a while that outboard has been the solution. It matters more than any other single element in home recording. The mics run 2nd.
this is bs actually

the internal cards tend to work with exactly the same chipsets as the external hardware. internal cards have DMA just like a Firewire box

the problem with internal cards is 3fold

#1: you cannot predict or manage cross-component interference on the analogue audio lines in an internal card. External boxes are wrapped in an aluminum or steel shell.

#2: The breakout cable. Among the most common fun killers in home recording is the breakout cable set. In order to fit a cluster of connectors onto the tiny form factor of a pci slot, each card manufacturer provides their very own proprietary injection molded big ass bus connector. typically these things have 32+ pins and are really sensitive to such things as *movement*. The breakout cables break easily. They're expensive to replace and generally a pain in the ass to reach if theyre dangling off the back of a tower....not to mention once loaded up with connections, the amount of stress on a breakout cluster is dumb.

Here's an example of one of the worst culprits in the industry:

some breakout boxes aren't so horrible but the cable is still proprietary:

#3: the ever-changing realm of PCI. If you choose to sell said device down the road, you might be hard pressed to even give it away. I've had my main audio interface since 2003, it's firewire400 and still holds pretty decent resale value, because all the new firewire ports are backwards compatible. I've upgraded my audio computer 4 times since then and it still works perfectly! I started out with a dual G5 tower, but discovered that a laptop was more convenient once the i7 showed up. I'm glad I didn't blow all that money on a pci card.
I'm thinking about getting a Duet 2 at the moment. Either that or a Babyface.

03-10-2012, 01:10 AM   #1734224  /  #134
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by d-_-b Found this in a store today. if you were curious about how much a real 16 channel mixer costs, this is an old used one from 1979: http://www.vintagekeysandpercussion....product_id=219

oh yeah i've been seen a few in that price range, used, collect yourself. Quite a few full studio boards too.

It'll probably be a few months before i'm back to any kind of proficiency on keyboard again, meanwhile i'm looking up PC specs.
I can sequence and control the korg sound engine through its own VST interface over USB, so i've got come pretty powerful synthesis at hand to be going on with.

Still not sure what to do with the audio usb interface. I've got the mixer and compressor thing now, they do what they say on the tin but having had a bit of a play it's not what i need so i wont bother having them now.

Are AMD chips a no-no? I know gamers often swear by them, but for sound engineering is it the same benefit? They're doing some six core processors which look good against i7s at such a price differencde it's almost worth having two of them.

 03-10-2012, 08:05 PM #1734764  /  #135 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 yeah AMD is generally frowned upon in the audio industry only because there's little surprises that pop up with respect to incompatibility. As far as raw power goes, AMD is just as decent as intel, but not all software exploits the built-in AMD advantage, which is a shame. AMD is aggressively priced to compete with intel because theyre slowly losing a war of attrition.
 03-15-2012, 03:16 PM #1739845  /  #136 akuaku Nocturnal Member Lord High Coder     Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,047 Let's get serious for a sec. Do you have these speaker cables? __________________ $\LARGE z_i=z_{i-1}^2+z_0 \hspace{20} \vspace{67}$
 03-15-2012, 05:29 PM #1740074  /  #137 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 saw that a couple weeks ago, comments are awesome
 03-15-2012, 05:29 PM #1740075  /  #138 Requiescat in pace Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,286 I read the reviews before I saw the price.
 03-19-2012, 09:37 PM #1744665  /  #139 Requiescat in pace Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,286 Well, I just ordered an i7 2800 PC, 8 Gb (up-able to 32), 2TB sata II, windows 7 pro. Guy's going to build it for me for £630, I only get close to that without the OS and with a smaller hard-drive. 3 year warranty, parts and labour year 1, labour thereafter. I'm going to get the AVID Fast Track C400 to start with. Now I'm crying. But at the same time I really need a decent machine for other stuff anyway, so I plan to keep it off the net and treat it as a stable appliance machine for music and work, and keep all the personal stuff on my laptop. It's getting close to time to lose a server and if this works out nicely it might make it worth while losing both of them and replacing them with one of these.
 03-19-2012, 09:47 PM #1744685  /  #140 Requiescat in pace Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,286 Meanwhile I am literally loving the Korg. It's everything I hoped it would be and only a little of what I hate about the way keyboards have developed over the past few years. It seems that once sound generation achieved a certain level the game became about lots and lots of features reinventing the one-man-band. The X50 has just a small amount of mostly useless crap on top, with everything you really need quite easy to get at and mess with. The PC desktop interface is a doddle and I've already managed to test drive it pretty well from within Psycle, and run the VST interface through LMMS, so Protools SE shouldn't be too difficult. The main thing is it's just nice to be able to sit down and get into a vibe with a piano, which I'd got to missing more than I realised. I'm struggling to get my hand-independence back, and I'm still badly jerky in terms of timing, but occasionally I've managed to hit the sweet zone where everything falls into place and you're just playing. eta: glad i didn't bother with that behringer mixer and compressor offer. Same guy who's building the PC though so no hard feelings, it was re-talking to him which finally broke my inertia after all. Last edited by Requiescat in pace; 03-19-2012 at 09:51 PM.
 03-19-2012, 10:29 PM #1744727  /  #141 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 The Avid box looks fun and decent. You can be my testpilot for that thing. I dont know anyone who owns one. I'm interested to know if the housing is metal or plastic
 03-19-2012, 10:38 PM #1744732  /  #142 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 your biggest challenge outside of learning how to run the software is dealing with round-trip latency. there's 2 types of monitoring you'll have to contend with. One type of signal monitor happens when you run a line/mic into the audio interface and that same signal just passes right through the interface, the interface's own driver software will allow you to attenuate the "through" signal. there is zero-latency for this path. another type of monitoring involves a little latency but it should not be noticeable. This routing allows the input signal to run into the interface, to the computer, through whatever effects/eq/dsp you have set up on an input channelstrip, and back out through the master stereo pair channelstrip, and out through the stereo outputs on the audio interface. you typically do *not* want both of these monitoring systems running simultaneously, because it sounds weird and it is not giving you a real reference of whats going on.
03-19-2012, 11:43 PM   #1744800  /  #143
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Quote:
 Using these cables, and only using these cables, I was finally able to hear an auditory gem that has been long rumored among music connaisseurs - Aretha Franklin's stress-fart just prior to her high A in her recording of "You're All I Need to Get By". Worth every penny.
lol/
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 03-21-2012, 06:52 AM #1746523  /  #144 BobCox bObCoX     Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Under Your Doormat Posts: 1,440 Buy a Analog non DRM recording system. Then do what you want. Tubes rule sound. __________________ Oh sure! Post a Signature in these forums and the next thing you know your identity's been stolen along with your Pants and Wallet.
 03-21-2012, 06:53 AM #1746524  /  #145 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 shut the fuck up
03-21-2012, 09:23 AM   #1746582  /  #146
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by d-_-b your biggest challenge outside of learning how to run the software is dealing with round-trip latency. there's 2 types of monitoring you'll have to contend with. One type of signal monitor happens when you run a line/mic into the audio interface and that same signal just passes right through the interface, the interface's own driver software will allow you to attenuate the "through" signal. there is zero-latency for this path. another type of monitoring involves a little latency but it should not be noticeable. This routing allows the input signal to run into the interface, to the computer, through whatever effects/eq/dsp you have set up on an input channelstrip, and back out through the master stereo pair channelstrip, and out through the stereo outputs on the audio interface. you typically do *not* want both of these monitoring systems running simultaneously, because it sounds weird and it is not giving you a real reference of whats going on.
Yeah I'm, going to have some fun, but at least I can be confident that any latency is in the routing and not because the processor is crying.

PC just arrived!

I hope the avid thing is metal. Might grab it later today (DV247.com has a warehouse/salesroom nearby).

 03-21-2012, 06:53 PM #1747212  /  #147 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 sweet!
 03-21-2012, 07:55 PM #1747303  /  #148 Requiescat in pace Dubstyle.     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: i forget Posts: 23,286 Damn couldn't make it there today. Going tomorrow, taking enough cash for some cables and headphones on top. The C400 better be metal, but if not at least it's not "plasticy" like the m-audio range.
 03-21-2012, 08:21 PM #1747319  /  #149 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 well, its all the same company so who knows
 03-21-2012, 08:23 PM #1747323  /  #150 PlaceboMessiah Banned   Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 15,853 decent headphones are the Sony MDR7506. very sensitive, dont abuse them or they will roast. AKG makes some excellent reference monitor headphones in the 'pro' range but they require a very nice high current headphone amp avoid DJ headsets and earbuds. Headphones are the audio equivalent of a microscope

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