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03-11-2012, 05:01 AM   #1735064  /  #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Interesting info on whale hearing.
I am interested in how this developed from the corresponding Weberian apparatus. I am less interested in how it is claimed to have developed from a land animal but since the whale structure seems to be quite different someone might want to explain how the whale structure evolved from a land animal. But that would be work and I really do not expect anyone here to do it.
It is absurd to think that such a completely different hearing system could come into being from a land animal.

http://140.220.1.9/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewis...s/hearing.html
Quote:
 In modern toothed whales, the area of the head most sensitive to sound reception is the lower jaw, from which sound is transmitted to the ear by means of a fat pad through the greatly enlarged mandibular foramen (Norris, 1964). The lateral wall of the tympanic bone (called the tympanic plate) is the sound input area, and is so thin that it transmits sound very efficiently. Thus, the tympanic membrane of land mammals is functionally replaced by the tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a), and the relation between sound input area and ossicular size is similar in land mammals and cetaceans (Nummela, 1995; Nummela et al., 1999b). Unlike generalized land mammals, the ossicles of modern cetaceans are heavy, and lack gracile lever-arms (manubrium and crus longum). The external auditory meatus is occluded and the eardrum is stretched into an elastic ligament; neither is important in hearing (McCormick et al., 1970). Furthermore, the ossicles of whales are not loosely suspended in the middle ear cavity, but sound passes to the ossicles through a bony connection (synostosis) between malleus and tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a). A functional model of the middle ear in toothed whales (odontocetes) was developed by Hemilä et al. (1999, 2001). It shows that two lever-arm systems occur in these whales, and that the bony shell of the middle ear (the tympanic bone), is part of this system. Their model is consistent with what we know about the anatomy and function of the modern whales. The model holds that there are two lever-arm systems that match the small difference in impedance between water and inner ear fluid. However, anatomical elements involved in making these levers differ between modern cetaceans and their Eocene relatives. One lever-arm system has its axis through the malleus-incus, and the other has its axis through the greatly enlarged medial lip of the tympanic, the involucrum (Hemilä et al., 1999). The first of these matches the rotational axis of generalized mammals, but its position is reoriented (Fleischer, 1978; Lancaster, 1990). The rotational axis through the involucrum is newly evolved, and its function is dependent on the loosening of the connection between tympanic and periotic bone, and the lack of contact between involucrum and periotic. To eliminate the effects of bone conducted sound through the skull, the ear is acoustically isolated from the rest of the skull by airfilled sinuses.
The changes would simply be impossible in a land animal to whale lineage..
I do not expect the folks here to explain how those changes could occur.
Well, then, why don't you enlighten us?
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03-11-2012, 06:29 AM   #1735092  /  #1277
akuaku
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates True Cetacea (Truecetaceaomorpha)
Man, you're killing me.
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03-11-2012, 08:43 AM   #1735132  /  #1278
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates There is no doubting that there are a number of traits that cetaceans have that we can find in the lineage I have proposed. And that are not found in the land animal alternative.
I doubt it. Name the traits you believe modern cetaceans have that can be found in your supposed lineage and which are not found in any terrestrial. Provide rational argument as to why on each. Especially why they could not have originated in a terrestrial.
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03-11-2012, 08:48 AM   #1735133  /  #1279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Interesting info on whale hearing.
I am interested in how this developed from the corresponding Weberian apparatus. I am less interested in how it is claimed to have developed from a land animal but since the whale structure seems to be quite different someone might want to explain how the whale structure evolved from a land animal. But that would be work and I really do not expect anyone here to do it.
It is absurd to think that such a completely different hearing system could come into being from a land animal.

http://140.220.1.9/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewis...s/hearing.html
Quote:
 In modern toothed whales, the area of the head most sensitive to sound reception is the lower jaw, from which sound is transmitted to the ear by means of a fat pad through the greatly enlarged mandibular foramen (Norris, 1964). The lateral wall of the tympanic bone (called the tympanic plate) is the sound input area, and is so thin that it transmits sound very efficiently. Thus, the tympanic membrane of land mammals is functionally replaced by the tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a), and the relation between sound input area and ossicular size is similar in land mammals and cetaceans (Nummela, 1995; Nummela et al., 1999b). Unlike generalized land mammals, the ossicles of modern cetaceans are heavy, and lack gracile lever-arms (manubrium and crus longum). The external auditory meatus is occluded and the eardrum is stretched into an elastic ligament; neither is important in hearing (McCormick et al., 1970). Furthermore, the ossicles of whales are not loosely suspended in the middle ear cavity, but sound passes to the ossicles through a bony connection (synostosis) between malleus and tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a). A functional model of the middle ear in toothed whales (odontocetes) was developed by Hemilä et al. (1999, 2001). It shows that two lever-arm systems occur in these whales, and that the bony shell of the middle ear (the tympanic bone), is part of this system. Their model is consistent with what we know about the anatomy and function of the modern whales. The model holds that there are two lever-arm systems that match the small difference in impedance between water and inner ear fluid. However, anatomical elements involved in making these levers differ between modern cetaceans and their Eocene relatives. One lever-arm system has its axis through the malleus-incus, and the other has its axis through the greatly enlarged medial lip of the tympanic, the involucrum (Hemilä et al., 1999). The first of these matches the rotational axis of generalized mammals, but its position is reoriented (Fleischer, 1978; Lancaster, 1990). The rotational axis through the involucrum is newly evolved, and its function is dependent on the loosening of the connection between tympanic and periotic bone, and the lack of contact between involucrum and periotic. To eliminate the effects of bone conducted sound through the skull, the ear is acoustically isolated from the rest of the skull by airfilled sinuses.
The changes would simply be impossible in a land animal to whale lineage..
I do not expect the folks here to explain how those changes could occur.
You have yet to explain why these changes are impossible. And not just impossible, but simply impossible.
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03-11-2012, 09:51 AM   #1735137  /  #1280
Faid

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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates Well I predicted that there would hooting and hollering when I moved on from the whale ancestry in a day or two. I neglected to mention there would be absurd hooting and hollering even at this time. Oh well. I know you guys live for this.
Predicting that announcing your imminent bail would be met with ridicule does not involve any psychic powers, "socrates".
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This would make a fascinating discussion, but I know that people here will simply turn this into an argument.

03-11-2012, 09:53 AM   #1735138  /  #1281
Faid

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 17,805

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates Mammal ear Whale ear Weberian ossicles Weberian ossicles
Thank you for showing us the clear similarity of the human middle ear and the whale middle ear, compared to the entirely different Weberian ossicles.

Will that be all?
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This would make a fascinating discussion, but I know that people here will simply turn this into an argument.

03-11-2012, 09:56 AM   #1735139  /  #1282
Faid

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 17,805

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Interesting info on whale hearing.
I am interested in how this developed from the corresponding Weberian apparatus. I am less interested in how it is claimed to have developed from a land animal but since the whale structure seems to be quite different someone might want to explain how the whale structure evolved from a land animal. But that would be work and I really do not expect anyone here to do it.
It is absurd to think that such a completely different hearing system could come into being from a land animal.

http://140.220.1.9/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewis...s/hearing.html
Quote:
 In modern toothed whales, the area of the head most sensitive to sound reception is the lower jaw, from which sound is transmitted to the ear by means of a fat pad through the greatly enlarged mandibular foramen (Norris, 1964). The lateral wall of the tympanic bone (called the tympanic plate) is the sound input area, and is so thin that it transmits sound very efficiently. Thus, the tympanic membrane of land mammals is functionally replaced by the tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a), and the relation between sound input area and ossicular size is similar in land mammals and cetaceans (Nummela, 1995; Nummela et al., 1999b). Unlike generalized land mammals, the ossicles of modern cetaceans are heavy, and lack gracile lever-arms (manubrium and crus longum). The external auditory meatus is occluded and the eardrum is stretched into an elastic ligament; neither is important in hearing (McCormick et al., 1970). Furthermore, the ossicles of whales are not loosely suspended in the middle ear cavity, but sound passes to the ossicles through a bony connection (synostosis) between malleus and tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a). A functional model of the middle ear in toothed whales (odontocetes) was developed by Hemilä et al. (1999, 2001). It shows that two lever-arm systems occur in these whales, and that the bony shell of the middle ear (the tympanic bone), is part of this system. Their model is consistent with what we know about the anatomy and function of the modern whales. The model holds that there are two lever-arm systems that match the small difference in impedance between water and inner ear fluid. However, anatomical elements involved in making these levers differ between modern cetaceans and their Eocene relatives. One lever-arm system has its axis through the malleus-incus, and the other has its axis through the greatly enlarged medial lip of the tympanic, the involucrum (Hemilä et al., 1999). The first of these matches the rotational axis of generalized mammals, but its position is reoriented (Fleischer, 1978; Lancaster, 1990). The rotational axis through the involucrum is newly evolved, and its function is dependent on the loosening of the connection between tympanic and periotic bone, and the lack of contact between involucrum and periotic. To eliminate the effects of bone conducted sound through the skull, the ear is acoustically isolated from the rest of the skull by airfilled sinuses.
The changes would simply be impossible in a land animal to whale lineage..
UNSUPPORTED ASSERTION spotted.

Please provide reference and link for it, and copy and paste the relevant parts.

Thx.
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This would make a fascinating discussion, but I know that people here will simply turn this into an argument.

03-11-2012, 10:29 AM   #1735144  /  #1283
RAFH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Interesting info on whale hearing.
I am interested in how this developed from the corresponding Weberian apparatus. I am less interested in how it is claimed to have developed from a land animal but since the whale structure seems to be quite different someone might want to explain how the whale structure evolved from a land animal. But that would be work and I really do not expect anyone here to do it.
It is absurd to think that such a completely different hearing system could come into being from a land animal.

http://140.220.1.9/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewis...s/hearing.html
Quote:
 In modern toothed whales, the area of the head most sensitive to sound reception is the lower jaw, from which sound is transmitted to the ear by means of a fat pad through the greatly enlarged mandibular foramen (Norris, 1964). The lateral wall of the tympanic bone (called the tympanic plate) is the sound input area, and is so thin that it transmits sound very efficiently. Thus, the tympanic membrane of land mammals is functionally replaced by the tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a), and the relation between sound input area and ossicular size is similar in land mammals and cetaceans (Nummela, 1995; Nummela et al., 1999b). Unlike generalized land mammals, the ossicles of modern cetaceans are heavy, and lack gracile lever-arms (manubrium and crus longum). The external auditory meatus is occluded and the eardrum is stretched into an elastic ligament; neither is important in hearing (McCormick et al., 1970). Furthermore, the ossicles of whales are not loosely suspended in the middle ear cavity, but sound passes to the ossicles through a bony connection (synostosis) between malleus and tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a). A functional model of the middle ear in toothed whales (odontocetes) was developed by Hemilä et al. (1999, 2001). It shows that two lever-arm systems occur in these whales, and that the bony shell of the middle ear (the tympanic bone), is part of this system. Their model is consistent with what we know about the anatomy and function of the modern whales. The model holds that there are two lever-arm systems that match the small difference in impedance between water and inner ear fluid. However, anatomical elements involved in making these levers differ between modern cetaceans and their Eocene relatives. One lever-arm system has its axis through the malleus-incus, and the other has its axis through the greatly enlarged medial lip of the tympanic, the involucrum (Hemilä et al., 1999). The first of these matches the rotational axis of generalized mammals, but its position is reoriented (Fleischer, 1978; Lancaster, 1990). The rotational axis through the involucrum is newly evolved, and its function is dependent on the loosening of the connection between tympanic and periotic bone, and the lack of contact between involucrum and periotic. To eliminate the effects of bone conducted sound through the skull, the ear is acoustically isolated from the rest of the skull by airfilled sinuses.
The changes would simply be impossible in a land animal to whale lineage..
UNSUPPORTED ASSERTION spotted.

Please provide reference and link for it, and copy and paste the relevant parts.

Thx.
Suckers are just suckers, some of them are people.
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03-11-2012, 12:09 PM   #1735164  /  #1284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Weberian apparatus: "Series of four or five modified vertebrae which connect the swim bladder to the inner ear of ostariphysian fishes; a set of structures, including a series of small bones, connecting the dorsal wall of the air bladder to the region of the ear; in carp, minnows, suckers, catfishes, and other ostariophysan fishes" See FishBase Glossary Searched Term. The apparatus is a chain of bony ossicles (derived from vertebral processes) linking the swim bladder with the inner ear. A change in swim bladder volume as sound waves pass through the fish rocks the tripus. This movement is transferred through the intercalium and schaphium to the claustrum which abuts onto the perilymphatic sinus impar. The sinus, in turn, is linked to an endolymphatic transverse duct joining the saculi of either side. The system allows reception of an unusually wide range of frequencies and also seems capable of directional hearing. See also image at claustrum.

The whale ear has specific adaptations to the marine environment. In humans, the middle ear works as an impedance matcher between the outside air’s low impedance and the cochlear fluid’s high impedance. In aquatic mammals such as whales, however, there is no great difference between the outer and inner environments. Instead of sound passing through the outer ear to the middle ear, whales receive sound through the throat, from which it passes through a low-impedance fat-filled cavity to the inner ear.[10] The whale ear is acoustically isolated from the skull by air-filled sinus pockets, which allow for greater directional hearing underwater. [11]

--- Ossicles in the Weberian apparatus, ie., Weberian ossicles

a) Claustrum 結骨
b) Scaphium --------------------------- Stapes in human
c) Intercalarium ----------------------- Incus in human
d) Tripus (the largest bone) ------ Malleolus\ Malleus in human

Weberian apparatus: "Series of four or five modified vertebrae which connect the swim bladder to the inner ear of ostariphysian fishes; a set of structures, including a series of small bones, connecting the dorsal wall of the air bladder to the region of the ear; in carp, minnows, suckers, catfishes, and other ostariophysan fishes" See FishBase Glossary Searched Term. The apparatus is a chain of bony ossicles (derived from vertebral processes) linking the swim bladder with the inner ear. A change in swim bladder volume as sound waves pass through the fish rocks the tripus. This movement is transferred through the intercalium and schaphium to the claustrum which abuts onto the perilymphatic sinus impar. The sinus, in turn, is linked to an endolymphatic transverse duct joining the saculi of either side. The system allows reception of an unusually wide range of frequencies and also seems capable of directional hearing. See also image at claustrum.

Quote:
 In modern toothed whales, the area of the head most sensitive to sound reception is the lower jaw, from which sound is transmitted to the ear by means of a fat pad through the greatly enlarged mandibular foramen (Norris, 1964). The lateral wall of the tympanic bone (called the tympanic plate) is the sound input area, and is so thin that it transmits sound very efficiently. Thus, the tympanic membrane of land mammals is functionally replaced by the tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a), and the relation between sound input area and ossicular size is similar in land mammals and cetaceans (Nummela, 1995; Nummela et al., 1999b). Unlike generalized land mammals, the ossicles of modern cetaceans are heavy, and lack gracile lever-arms (manubrium and crus longum). The external auditory meatus is occluded and the eardrum is stretched into an elastic ligament; neither is important in hearing (McCormick et al., 1970). Furthermore, the ossicles of whales are not loosely suspended in the middle ear cavity, but sound passes to the ossicles through a bony connection (synostosis) between malleus and tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a). A functional model of the middle ear in toothed whales (odontocetes) was developed by Hemilä et al. (1999, 2001). It shows that two lever-arm systems occur in these whales, and that the bony shell of the middle ear (the tympanic bone), is part of this system. Their model is consistent with what we know about the anatomy and function of the modern whales. The model holds that there are two lever-arm systems that match the small difference in impedance between water and inner ear fluid. However, anatomical elements involved in making these levers differ between modern cetaceans and their Eocene relatives. One lever-arm system has its axis through the malleus-incus, and the other has its axis through the greatly enlarged medial lip of the tympanic, the involucrum (Hemilä et al., 1999). The first of these matches the rotational axis of generalized mammals, but its position is reoriented (Fleischer, 1978; Lancaster, 1990). The rotational axis through the involucrum is newly evolved, and its function is dependent on the loosening of the connection between tympanic and periotic bone, and the lack of contact between involucrum and periotic. To eliminate the effects of bone conducted sound through the skull, the ear is acoustically isolated from the rest of the skull by airfilled sinuses.
What are the sources for these paragraphs?

eta oh I see the bottom one at least has a source here:

http://140.220.1.9/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewis...s/hearing.html

but one that shows this is simply taken out of context - the page starts by saying that:

Quote:
 Hearing research in the Thewissen lab, conducted mainly by Sirpa Nummela, documents the changes of the ear as whales evolved from being land mammals to living in water. The physics of sound travelling in water is very different from that in air. The ear is the most important sense organ in most modern whales and dolphins, and therefore, significant changes occurred in the ear during the early evolution of whales. The fossil record shows that the whale ear evolved to its present morphology within the first ten million years of whale evolution.
and ends with this statement:

Quote:
 Sirpa Nummela, presently a postdoctoral fellow in the Thewissen lab, is now applying the insights from her studies of modern odontocete hearing to Eocene whale ears from Pakistan and India. These studies may unravel how the whale ear adapted to underwater sound.
both of which show that it is possible to trace the evolution of the modern whale ear structure from a lineage going back to their land ancestors. Indeed the sound transmission from the lower jaw bone, including the fat filled pad, was already present in ambulocetus and protocetids:

Quote:
 The mandibular foramen in ambulocetids had increased in size, which indicates that a fat pad was likely to be housed in the lower jaw. In modern whales, this fat pad in the mandibular foramen extends posteriorly to the middle ear. This allows sounds to be received in the lower jaw, and then transmitted through the fat pad to the middle ear

Quote:
 In both remingtonocetids and protocetids, the size of mandibular foramen had increased.[11] The large mandibular foramen indicates that the mandibular fat pad was present. However air-filled sinuses that are present in modern cetaceans, which function to isolate the ear acoustically to enable better underwater hearing, is still not present.[12] The external auditory meatus (ear canal) which is absent in modern cetaceans is also present. Hence, the method of sound transmission present in them combines aspects of pakicetids and modern odontocetes(toothed whales).[12] At this intermediate stage of hearing development, the transmission of airborne sound was poor due to the modifications of ear for underwater hearing; while directional underwater hearing was also poor compared to modern cetaceans.[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans

and even the very early indohyus and pakicetus have ears that show a relationship with whales (and nothing else):

Quote:
 The fossils were discovered among rocks that had been collected more than 30 years ago in Kashmir by the Indian geologist A Ranga Rao who found a few teeth and parts of a jawbone, but when he died many rocks had yet to be broken open. Ranga Rao's widow gave the rocks to Professor Thewissen, who was working on them when his technician accidentally broke one of the skulls they had found and Thewissen recognised the ear structure of the auditory bulla, formed from the ectotympanic bone in a shape which is highly unusual and only resembles the skulls of whales and the earlier land creature Pakicetus.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indohyus

Last edited by Monad; 03-11-2012 at 12:41 PM.

03-11-2012, 12:59 PM   #1735171  /  #1285
buttershug
Hung

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 21,310

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Interesting info on whale hearing.
I am interested in how this developed from the corresponding Weberian apparatus. I am less interested in how it is claimed to have developed from a land animal but since the whale structure seems to be quite different someone might want to explain how the whale structure evolved from a land animal. But that would be work and I really do not expect anyone here to do it.
It is absurd to think that such a completely different hearing system could come into being from a land animal.

http://140.220.1.9/DEPTS/ANAT/Thewis...s/hearing.html
Quote:
 In modern toothed whales, the area of the head most sensitive to sound reception is the lower jaw, from which sound is transmitted to the ear by means of a fat pad through the greatly enlarged mandibular foramen (Norris, 1964). The lateral wall of the tympanic bone (called the tympanic plate) is the sound input area, and is so thin that it transmits sound very efficiently. Thus, the tympanic membrane of land mammals is functionally replaced by the tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a), and the relation between sound input area and ossicular size is similar in land mammals and cetaceans (Nummela, 1995; Nummela et al., 1999b). Unlike generalized land mammals, the ossicles of modern cetaceans are heavy, and lack gracile lever-arms (manubrium and crus longum). The external auditory meatus is occluded and the eardrum is stretched into an elastic ligament; neither is important in hearing (McCormick et al., 1970). Furthermore, the ossicles of whales are not loosely suspended in the middle ear cavity, but sound passes to the ossicles through a bony connection (synostosis) between malleus and tympanic plate (Fleischer, 1978; Hemilä et al., 1999; Nummela et al., 1999a). A functional model of the middle ear in toothed whales (odontocetes) was developed by Hemilä et al. (1999, 2001). It shows that two lever-arm systems occur in these whales, and that the bony shell of the middle ear (the tympanic bone), is part of this system. Their model is consistent with what we know about the anatomy and function of the modern whales. The model holds that there are two lever-arm systems that match the small difference in impedance between water and inner ear fluid. However, anatomical elements involved in making these levers differ between modern cetaceans and their Eocene relatives. One lever-arm system has its axis through the malleus-incus, and the other has its axis through the greatly enlarged medial lip of the tympanic, the involucrum (Hemilä et al., 1999). The first of these matches the rotational axis of generalized mammals, but its position is reoriented (Fleischer, 1978; Lancaster, 1990). The rotational axis through the involucrum is newly evolved, and its function is dependent on the loosening of the connection between tympanic and periotic bone, and the lack of contact between involucrum and periotic. To eliminate the effects of bone conducted sound through the skull, the ear is acoustically isolated from the rest of the skull by airfilled sinuses.
The changes would simply be impossible in a land animal to whale lineage..
Check land animal to seal lineage.
I don't know what they are like but it would be worth checking out.
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03-11-2012, 01:01 PM   #1735174  /  #1286
buttershug
Hung

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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates There is no doubting that there are a number of traits that cetaceans have that we can find in the lineage I have proposed. And that are not found in the land animal alternative.
Yes traits they picked up after leaving land.
Check seals and other animals that have not completely left land yet.

And you have not said you do not believe in an Intelligence, just that your ideas are not based on them.
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03-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #1735199  /  #1287
Socrates
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 33,325

Quote:
 In both remingtonocetids and protocetids, the size of mandibular foramen had increased.[11] The large mandibular foramen indicates that the mandibular fat pad was present. However air-filled sinuses that are present in modern cetaceans, which function to isolate the ear acoustically to enable better underwater hearing, is still not present.[12] The external auditory meatus (ear canal) which is absent in modern cetaceans is also present. Hence, the method of sound transmission present in them combines aspects of pakicetids and modern odontocetes(toothed whales).[12] At this intermediate stage of hearing development, the transmission of airborne sound was poor due to the modifications of ear for underwater hearing; while directional underwater hearing was also poor compared to modern cetaceans.[12]
So we are led to believe that these creatures took to the water eevn though their hearing was poor in both the air and the water.
That is the oddity of the purported land animal to wahle lineage. The creatures ar less adapted to survival.
But I am sure someone here will come up with some rationalization. But step after step the purported land animal to whale lineage requires rationalizations and tap dancing.
A true evolutionist who works with evolution principles will reject such a purported lineage.
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03-11-2012, 02:52 PM   #1735201  /  #1288
Socrates
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 33,325

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
 In both remingtonocetids and protocetids, the size of mandibular foramen had increased.[11] The large mandibular foramen indicates that the mandibular fat pad was present. However air-filled sinuses that are present in modern cetaceans, which function to isolate the ear acoustically to enable better underwater hearing, is still not present.[12] The external auditory meatus (ear canal) which is absent in modern cetaceans is also present. Hence, the method of sound transmission present in them combines aspects of pakicetids and modern odontocetes(toothed whales).[12] At this intermediate stage of hearing development, the transmission of airborne sound was poor due to the modifications of ear for underwater hearing; while directional underwater hearing was also poor compared to modern cetaceans.[12]
So we are led to believe that these creatures took to the water eevn though their hearing was poor in both the air and the water.
That is the oddity of the purported land animal to wahle lineage. The creatures ar less adapted to survival.
But I am sure someone here will come up with some rationalization. But step after step the purported land animal to whale lineage requires rationalizations and tap dancing.
A true evolutionist who works with evolution principles will reject such a purported lineage.
No doubt this is why nobody here is willing to describe how the purported evolution occurred in the whale hearing. It is simply an impossible transition.
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03-11-2012, 02:52 PM   #1735202  /  #1289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
 In both remingtonocetids and protocetids, the size of mandibular foramen had increased.[11] The large mandibular foramen indicates that the mandibular fat pad was present. However air-filled sinuses that are present in modern cetaceans, which function to isolate the ear acoustically to enable better underwater hearing, is still not present.[12] The external auditory meatus (ear canal) which is absent in modern cetaceans is also present. Hence, the method of sound transmission present in them combines aspects of pakicetids and modern odontocetes(toothed whales).[12] At this intermediate stage of hearing development, the transmission of airborne sound was poor due to the modifications of ear for underwater hearing; while directional underwater hearing was also poor compared to modern cetaceans.[12]
So we are led to believe that these creatures took to the water eevn though their hearing was poor in both the air and the water.
Do learn how to read - their hearing was poorer in the air as it was better adapted to underwater hearing as that was where they spent most of their time. It was not as good as that of modern whales underwater yet but that doesn't mean it was poor underwater - that is not what the sentence is saying.

And regardless of your incredulity - here is hard evidence, unlike your fantasised lineage with zero fossil evidence and zero credibility.

 03-11-2012, 02:54 PM #1735203  /  #1290 Socrates Senior Member   Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 33,325 As I said - the rationalizations and tap dancing. Would anyone care to describe the transition from land animal ear to cetacean ear? That would be quite interesting. __________________
03-11-2012, 02:57 PM   #1735209  /  #1291
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates As I said - the rationalizations and tap dancing.

 03-11-2012, 02:59 PM #1735218  /  #1292 Socrates Senior Member   Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 33,325 What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures". __________________
03-11-2012, 03:15 PM   #1735228  /  #1293
Socrates
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures".
This is worth analyzing.
If people believe there is no connection between these, then they believe that these same structures evolved in one case within an internal system in a fish and in the other within an external system in a land animal .

What are the chances of that?
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Last edited by Socrates; 03-11-2012 at 03:28 PM.

03-11-2012, 03:38 PM   #1735239  /  #1294
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence).
Convergence is not coincidence and no matter how often you repeat this falsification it doesn't make it any truer

03-11-2012, 03:43 PM   #1735244  /  #1295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
 In both remingtonocetids and protocetids, the size of mandibular foramen had increased.[11] The large mandibular foramen indicates that the mandibular fat pad was present. However air-filled sinuses that are present in modern cetaceans, which function to isolate the ear acoustically to enable better underwater hearing, is still not present.[12] The external auditory meatus (ear canal) which is absent in modern cetaceans is also present. Hence, the method of sound transmission present in them combines aspects of pakicetids and modern odontocetes(toothed whales).[12] At this intermediate stage of hearing development, the transmission of airborne sound was poor due to the modifications of ear for underwater hearing; while directional underwater hearing was also poor compared to modern cetaceans.[12]
So we are led to believe that these creatures took to the water eevn though their hearing was poor in both the air and the water.
That is the oddity of the purported land animal to wahle lineage. The creatures ar less adapted to survival.
It doesn't say that, does it? It says their hearing was no longer as good on land and not as good as it eventually became. Once again revealing your poor understanding of evolution. Do you think it's impossible for the marine creatures to have evolved into terrestrial creatures, obviously, their modified fins wouldn't have initially been fully adapted to terrestrialism and at some point wouldn't have been very effective in the water.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates But I am sure someone here will come up with some rationalization. But step after step the purported land animal to whale lineage requires rationalizations and tap dancing. A true evolutionist who works with evolution principles will reject such a purported lineage.
Another statement revealing your ignorance of evolution. It's not about what's best, but about what works. Do you think humans are fully adapted to living on Mars or in space, Or that after long periods there they are not maladapted to life on earth? It's not the best analogy but it works. If we are not adapted to space, and it maladapts us for life on earth, why do we go there?
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03-11-2012, 03:44 PM   #1735245  /  #1296
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures".
Then you should support the mammalian origin for whales because the Weberian apparatus does not have a 3 part ossicle structure and is very different in structure and origin from the mammalian (and whale) middle ear:

Quote:
 "Series of four or five modified vertebrae which connect the swim bladder to the inner ear of ostariphysian fishes; a set of structures, including a series of small bones, connecting the dorsal wall of the air bladder to the region of the ear; in carp, minnows, suckers, catfishes, and other ostariophysan fishes" See FishBase Glossary Searched Term. The apparatus is a chain of bony ossicles (derived from vertebral processes) linking the swim bladder with the inner ear. A change in swim bladder volume as sound waves pass through the fish rocks the tripus. This movement is transferred through the intercalium and schaphium to the claustrum which abuts onto the perilymphatic sinus impar. The sinus, in turn, is linked to an endolymphatic transverse duct joining the saculi of either side. The system allows reception of an unusually wide range of frequencies and also seems capable of directional hearing.

03-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #1735250  /  #1297
Socrates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures".
This is worth analyzing.
If people believe there is no connection between these, then they believe that these same structures evolved in one case within an internal system in a fish and in the other within an external system in a land animal .

What are the chances of that?
People cannot talk themselves out of this.
Is anyone claiming similar so-called "selection pressures"?
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03-11-2012, 04:02 PM   #1735257  /  #1298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures".
This is worth analyzing.
If people believe there is no connection between these, then they believe that these same structures evolved in one case within an internal system in a fish and in the other within an external system in a land animal .

What are the chances of that?
Um, they are not the same structures. Not at all, as you, your-self, have referenced.

I mean, really, you are going to have to try harder.
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03-11-2012, 04:04 PM   #1735258  /  #1299
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures".
Why not? Similar responses to similar environments. Plus the whole jaw thing reinforces the whole jaw to ear thing. Are you dense, or what?
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03-11-2012, 04:09 PM   #1735263  /  #1300
RAFH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Socrates What is fascinating to me is that Nature developed the same 3 part ossicles structure in the ostariophysians, land animals and the Cetacea. Quite an interesting co-incidence. I look for ancestry rather than convergence (coincidence). In the case of the ossicles nobody can claim similar so-called "selection pressures".
This is worth analyzing.
If people believe there is no connection between these, then they believe that these same structures evolved in one case within an internal system in a fish and in the other within an external system in a land animal .

What are the chances of that?
People cannot talk themselves out of this.
Is anyone claiming similar so-called "selection pressures"?
Yes, and the results are similar, hearing underwater, but the means of doing so are significantly different.

Do you ever look at anything that doesn't contradict your beliefs? Are you capable of learning? Do you know anything at all? Other than your own misguided musings?
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