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Old 04-30-2012, 01:09 AM   #1793924  /  #676
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For starters, it implies that morality is a matter of socially privileged individuals' enforcement of norms, which has a host of extremely terrible implications for real human beings.
That's one of the best definitions of mortality I've ever seen.

I struggle to see what's wrong with it.
This post rewards in so many ways. It's poetry.
LOL. Can't argue that.

It's still a perfectly fitting description of morality (much easier to not screw that up when I'm on a keyboard). It's morality, not ethics.
No see, the typo was only one such way it rewarded. The ambiguity around the typo added a clever poetic touch on top of the fact that the none-typoed version is completely retarded.
No. The original is a perfectly valid definition of morality. Disagreeing is either

A) Fucking retarded

or

B)You like to make up my own definitions for words so you can argue for pages in a thread


I assume you like the latter.

Before you reply go look up what morality means.

STOP AGAIN

Go look it up again from a different source.

ALMOST

Do it again, different source.

OK, now you agree with me.

Cool?

I eagerly await your buttfuck response of why you think you're right.

Here's the original quote:

Quote:
morality is a matter of socially privileged individuals' enforcement of norms
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:38 AM   #1793946  /  #677
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Morality isn't a matter of socially priveleged individuals' enforcement of norms because the socially privleged can (and often do) act extremely immorally, which is one very important way that this conceptualization of morality is dangerous--it legitimizes bad conduct on the part of the powerful. Also, something can be right or wrong without enforcement at all--morality is a function of our norms themselves, not our enforcement thereof.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:18 AM   #1794181  /  #678
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Originally Posted by Quizalufagus View Post
Morality isn't a matter of socially priveleged individuals' enforcement of norms because the socially privleged can (and often do) act extremely immorally, which is one very important way that this conceptualization of morality is dangerous--it legitimizes bad conduct on the part of the powerful. Also, something can be right or wrong without enforcement at all--morality is a function of our norms themselves, not our enforcement thereof.
I agree, and always have done. I have not changed my views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Post #557 by Quizalufagus
Even your psuedoscientific schtick about "cerebrum = volition" and evopsych/morality is common.
Knee-jerk rteaction against someone else's views, not mine.

Whilst there is good reason to equate cerebral function with volition (because it takes the amygdala's emotional input into account to decide what "we want"), the Libet experiments only showed that we can let the cerebellum act independently - it's called "thinking of one thing while doing another". However, you were making a gross error by linking that to what you called "evopsych/morality", because that is the kind of bullshit I oppose. You were raging against someone else.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:32 AM   #1794188  /  #679
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... It's the "morality" part of the rather strange linkage, "evopsych/morality" that I reject. Our brains evolved, in such a way that we have "free will". Because of that, morality is not evolutionary baggage, even if our psychology is.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:42 AM   #1794192  /  #680
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Please throw away misconceptions about the nature of "evolutionary psychology". It has been misused (possibly wilfully) in the past, but I was never part of that, OK.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:30 PM   #1794336  /  #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidrage View Post
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Originally Posted by felice Ulivo View Post
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Originally Posted by liquidrage View Post
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For starters, it implies that morality is a matter of socially privileged individuals' enforcement of norms, which has a host of extremely terrible implications for real human beings.
That's one of the best definitions of mortality I've ever seen.

I struggle to see what's wrong with it.
This post rewards in so many ways. It's poetry.
LOL. Can't argue that.

It's still a perfectly fitting description of morality (much easier to not screw that up when I'm on a keyboard). It's morality, not ethics.
No see, the typo was only one such way it rewarded. The ambiguity around the typo added a clever poetic touch on top of the fact that the none-typoed version is completely retarded.
No. The original is a perfectly valid definition of morality. Disagreeing is either

A) Fucking retarded

or

B)You like to make up my own definitions for words so you can argue for pages in a thread


I assume you like the latter.

Before you reply go look up what morality means.

STOP AGAIN

Go look it up again from a different source.

ALMOST

Do it again, different source.

OK, now you agree with me.

Cool?

I eagerly await your buttfuck response of why you think you're right.

Here's the original quote:

Quote:
morality is a matter of socially privileged individuals' enforcement of norms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizalufagus View Post
Morality isn't a matter of socially priveleged individuals' enforcement of norms because the socially privleged can (and often do) act extremely immorally, which is one very important way that this conceptualization of morality is dangerous--it legitimizes bad conduct on the part of the powerful. Also, something can be right or wrong without enforcement at all--morality is a function of our norms themselves, not our enforcement thereof.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:33 PM   #1794338  /  #682
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Please throw away misconceptions about the nature of "evolutionary psychology". It has been misused (possibly wilfully) in the past, but I was never part of that, OK.
My problem with this is that I have a hard time figuring out which evo-phych hypotheses are misconceptions and which are merely unsupported assertions.

It's my burden though and I'm willing to carry it.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:34 PM   #1794339  /  #683
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White. Man's. Burden.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:34 PM   #1794340  /  #684
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I eagerly await your buttfuck response of why you think you're right.
RAVEN

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Old 04-30-2012, 03:36 PM   #1794342  /  #685
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White. Man's. Burden.
someone's gotta carry it. Might as well be me.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:23 AM   #1795151  /  #686
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White. Man's. Burden.
someone's gotta carry it. Might as well be me.
Nobody's asking anyone to carry a burden, Testy. Just don't take it out on me. All I want is not to get responses equivalent to "we know your sort", when you clearly don't. It's like being attacked for being a "Darwinist" when the attackers are thinking of social Darwinism.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:16 PM   #1795535  /  #687
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White. Man's. Burden.
someone's gotta carry it. Might as well be me.
Nobody's asking anyone to carry a burden, Testy. Just don't take it out on me. All I want is not to get responses equivalent to "we know your sort", when you clearly don't. It's like being attacked for being a "Darwinist" when the attackers are thinking of social Darwinism.
This happens a lot here David. Much more than it did at RDF, where I remember you from the mega-thread on whether or not evolution was stochastic. Many of your opponents from that debate can be found in the evo forum, though they rarely post in philo. I'm fairly certain most would agree you made many of the most cogent arguments on the 'not team,' second only to those of my_wan.

Glad to see you here finally. And don't worry that Testy is taking out his burden on you. He's happy to shoulder it. It's what he does in order to keep his tin soldiers in place. You may remember him from RDF. He was/is BWE, btw.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:25 PM   #1795541  /  #688
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I eagerly await your buttfuck response of why you think you're right.
RAVEN

this belongs in the memescape. Please make it so.
First, a reminder. Next:

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestyCalibrate View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by felice Ulivo View Post
White. Man's. Burden.
someone's gotta carry it. Might as well be me.
Nobody's asking anyone to carry a burden, Testy. Just don't take it out on me. All I want is not to get responses equivalent to "we know your sort", when you clearly don't. It's like being attacked for being a "Darwinist" when the attackers are thinking of social Darwinism.
Hmm. Attacked? I solve that by always taking the popular position. That way the smart people make the arguments and I look smart by association. It works. Ask tysixtus. He is seriously insecure about how much smarter I look than he does. True story.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:44 PM   #1795613  /  #689
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White. Man's. Burden.
someone's gotta carry it. Might as well be me.
Nobody's asking anyone to carry a burden, Testy. Just don't take it out on me. All I want is not to get responses equivalent to "we know your sort", when you clearly don't. It's like being attacked for being a "Darwinist" when the attackers are thinking of social Darwinism.


This has to be a troll.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:53 PM   #1795618  /  #690
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Morality isn't a matter of socially priveleged individuals' enforcement of norms because the socially privleged can (and often do) act extremely immorally, which is one very important way that this conceptualization of morality is dangerous--it legitimizes bad conduct on the part of the powerful. Also, something can be right or wrong without enforcement at all--morality is a function of our norms themselves, not our enforcement thereof.
I agree, and always have done. I have not changed my views.
You apparently don't agree seeing as I was directly addressing the implications of your POV there.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Post #557 by Quizalufagus
Even your psuedoscientific schtick about "cerebrum = volition" and evopsych/morality is common.
Knee-jerk rteaction against someone else's views, not mine.
No, I'm pretty sure I've commented extensively on your views specifically itt.

Quote:
Whilst there is good reason to equate cerebral function with volition (because it takes the amygdala's emotional input into account to decide what "we want"), the Libet experiments only showed that we can let the cerebellum act independently - it's called "thinking of one thing while doing another". However, you were making a gross error by linking that to what you called "evopsych/morality", because that is the kind of bullshit I oppose. You were raging against someone else.
You're either a troll or a total idiot. Febble and I have already explained at great length why you are wrong about both the science and the philosophy wrt to this.

I wasn't linking your ridiculously wrong views on the cerebellum to your ridiculously wrong views on evopsych/morality, I was just noting that you've expressed both of those sets of silly opinions in this thread.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:20 AM   #1795683  /  #691
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What leads you to think he doesn't?

(I'm still failing to understand why you ever thought I disagreed with you. There's some major non-communication going on here.)
Okay Febble, explain to me how your empirically informed idea of neurological impulse is of relevance to free will.

I don't know how I missed your earlier reply, but having just seen it this is the key issue anyway.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:32 AM   #1795694  /  #692
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Also Febbly webbly my favourite fourier transformation penguin of the mind in the world, when Dennett says free will doesn't exist, what sense do he mean it doesn't exist? Does he mean in the "theological" sense?
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:00 AM   #1795714  /  #693
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does dennett say it doesn't exist?
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:03 AM   #1795718  /  #694
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IIRC he came up with some bollocks about "evitability" which had something to do with cats jumping out of the way of falling blocks, and is primarily the negation of "inevitability" I take it.

eta: whether you term it "exist" or "is meaningful" or w/e his conclusion is demonstrably against theological/religious sense of free will. It's interesting because this is where a real disconnect occurs, as many have pointed out, the free will that Dennett, Harris and Dawkins attack is philosophically naive and not at all what is actually believed by religious people. Fuck, I'm not religious at all and I say it's meaningful, moreover, if someone gets sent to prison for something they do of their "own free will" then it's meaningless to say that such doesn't exist. But again, if what you mean by "doesn't exist" is some supernatural strawman, then there's no argument only misunderstanding and books to sell.

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Old 05-02-2012, 02:13 AM   #1795729  /  #695
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Hmm. It's been more than a year since I read freedom evolves but I think that isn't his point. Or, if it is, then I didn't get it at the time.
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:30 AM   #1795742  /  #696
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IIRC he came up with some bollocks about "evitability" which had something to do with cats jumping out of the way of falling blocks, and is primarily the negation of "inevitability" I take it.
that doesn't make sense.
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:38 AM   #1795745  /  #697
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It wasn't mean to, it's just a sham summation meant to point to what I'm getting at because it's been a while and I stopped caring about the Dennett &co take on this stuff a while back. It's something to poke Febble with, because she used to believe in God but now she doesn't even believe in herself. Still poking. Meta poke.
Anyway, inevitable makes sense, but evitable I take it means something along the lines of "avoidable by intervening impulse/decision" not that I can unpack what that is right now. Hence I'm interested in Febble's actual take. She's already agreed with a certain wording I used, so I need to understand if we both mean the same thing by them.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:26 AM   #1795778  /  #698
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I find myself agreeing with dennett on almost every detail he discusses. I just come to a different conclusion, one closer to schopenhaur or even berkeley (to be specific, I follow a basically buddist ontology if that isnt an oxymoron). But when discussing the physical, I see no point in trying to address it on foundational grounds because there is a tremendously pragmatic benefit to separating the philosophical and the material worlds.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:28 AM   #1795780  /  #699
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Eta: I'm pretty sure febble is going to echo what dennett says in that video.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:36 AM   #1795825  /  #700
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actually, in terms of western philosophy, rudolf steiner's Philosophy pf Freedom is where my opinion on the subject probably came from. Have you ever read it?

ETA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Freedom
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA004/...004_index.html

But then, I am a sort of Steiner fan and recognize that most people aren't.
from his preface to the 1st edition:
Quote:
A truth which comes to us from outside always bears the stamp of uncertainty. We can believe only what appears to each one of us in our own hearts as truth.
Only the truth can give us assurance in developing our individual powers. Whoever is tortured by doubts finds his powers lamed. In a world full of riddles, he can find no goal for his creative energies.
We no longer want merely to believe; we want to know. Belief demands the acceptance of truths which we do not fully comprehend. But things we do not fully comprehend are repugnant to the individual element in us, which wants to experience everything in the depths of its inner being. The only knowledge which satisfies us is one which is subject to no external standards but springs from the inner life of the personality.
Again, we do not want any knowledge of the kind that has become frozen once and for all into rigid academic rules, preserved in encyclopedias valid for all time. Each of us claims the right to start from the facts that lie nearest to hand, from his own immediate experiences, and thence to ascend to a knowledge of the whole universe. We strive after certainty in knowledge, but each in his own way.
Our scientific doctrines, too, should no longer be formulated as if we were unconditionally compelled to accept them. None of us would wish to give a scientific work a title like Fichte's “A Pellucid Account for the General Public concerning the Real Nature of the Newest Philosophy. An Attempt to Compel the Readers to Understand.” Today nobody should be compelled to understand. From anyone who is not driven to a certain view by his own individual needs, we demand no acknowledgment or agreement. Even with the immature human being, the child, we do not nowadays cram knowledge into it, but we try to develop its capacities so that it will no longer need to be compelled to understand, but will want to understand.
I am under no illusion about these characteristics of my time. I know how much the tendency prevails to make things impersonal and stereotyped. But I know equally well that many of my contemporaries try to order their lives in the kind of way I have indicated. To them I would dedicate this book. It is not meant to give “the only possible” path to the truth, but is meant to describe the path taken by one for whom truth is the main concern.
The book leads at first into somewhat abstract regions, where thought must draw sharp outlines if it is to reach clearly defined positions. But the reader will also be led out of these arid concepts into concrete life. I am indeed fully convinced that one must raise oneself into the ethereal realm of concepts if one would experience every aspect of existence. Whoever appreciates only the pleasures of the senses is unacquainted with life's sweetest savors. The oriental sages make their disciples live a life of renunciation and asceticism for years before they impart to them their own wisdom. The western world no longer demands pious exercises and ascetic habits as a preparation for science, but it does require the willingness to withdraw oneself awhile from the immediate impressions of life, and to betake oneself into the realm of pure thought.
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