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Theology, Hagiography and Creeds for discussion of religion(s), secularism and related issues

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Old 05-29-2012, 06:28 PM   #1818725  /  #376
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yo post ridiculous bullshit from the pahyrngulya comments or stfu
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:28 PM   #1818726  /  #377
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Except none of those are evolutionary biology papers.

The point here is that these guys repeatedly state that science isn't a prestige title and that you're a scientist if you do science, but then turn around and use science as a prestige title when they haven't done science since most current graduate students graduated high school (or in the case of Dawkins, since most of the current crop of postdocs were born). This is disingenuous and serves only to reinforce the ivory tower myth that so many of us are trying to fight.
I just figured this post out. yes. I agree.
Yup. It's the part that bothers me the most. As Linus pointed out, the issue with calling them scientists or not is context-dependent. I've always found that they speak on non-scientific issues in their capacity as scientists—evolutionary biologists, even. But mostly what they're prattling on about isn't science. Perhaps it's informed by science in some way, and that's great. But really, I think their arguments for atheism, or that science can disprove gods, or that science (which is a mix of empiricism and rationalism) has a monopoly on what is rational, is not helping because, well, it's transparently false.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:31 PM   #1818727  /  #378
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Originally Posted by fleet-footed Urban Youth View Post
yo post ridiculous bullshit from the pahyrngulya comments or stfu
Heh.
Quote:
skepticalmath 29 May 2012 at 11:26 am
How can these liars and thieves show their faces in public and claim to be part of some morally sound religious what-have-you.
skeptical..math?
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:32 PM   #1818728  /  #379
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Sure it does. But it's also the pot calling the kettle black. It's pretty cheeky of PZ to call someone else a fraud. I guess it takes one to know one or some shit like that.
Well, in the case of either Eric or Kent, I'm not sure it's an unwarranted title. Kent's even convicted.
Um. I have no idea what you are talking about. It's warranted just from the information in the post assuming PZ didn't just make it up. That's why it's pot/kettle.

PZ is also a fraud. He lies about his professional qualifications. Um. That's fraud. No? It's ironic that one dishonest huckster calls another out. No?

Sheesh.
I'm not defending PZ. I simply agree that Eric and Kent Hovind are frauds. In the case of Kent, he's even convicted of tax fraud. That's all.

Sheesh.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:34 PM   #1818729  /  #380
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Originally Posted by teeth View Post
Except none of those are evolutionary biology papers.

The point here is that these guys repeatedly state that science isn't a prestige title and that you're a scientist if you do science, but then turn around and use science as a prestige title when they haven't done science since most current graduate students graduated high school (or in the case of Dawkins, since most of the current crop of postdocs were born). This is disingenuous and serves only to reinforce the ivory tower myth that so many of us are trying to fight.
I just figured this post out. yes. I agree.
Yup. It's the part that bothers me the most. As Linus pointed out, the issue with calling them scientists or not is context-dependent. I've always found that they speak on non-scientific issues in their capacity as scientists—evolutionary biologists, even. But mostly what they're prattling on about isn't science. Perhaps it's informed by science in some way, and that's great. But really, I think their arguments for atheism, or that science can disprove gods, or that science (which is a mix of empiricism and rationalism) has a monopoly on what is rational, is not helping because, well, it's transparently false.
That's why it didn't register at first. That's pretty much exactly what my take on it is and for some reason I got that teeth was trying to add something else. It was just my parsing that was the problem though.

And yeah. Did you read PZ's atheism is a religion speech? From the OP of this thread? Yikes!! and double yikes!! Atheists, damn them for ruining another perfectly functional word.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:34 PM   #1818730  /  #381
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Originally Posted by BWE View Post
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Sure it does. But it's also the pot calling the kettle black. It's pretty cheeky of PZ to call someone else a fraud. I guess it takes one to know one or some shit like that.
Well, in the case of either Eric or Kent, I'm not sure it's an unwarranted title. Kent's even convicted.
Um. I have no idea what you are talking about. It's warranted just from the information in the post assuming PZ didn't just make it up. That's why it's pot/kettle.

PZ is also a fraud. He lies about his professional qualifications. Um. That's fraud. No? It's ironic that one dishonest huckster calls another out. No?

Sheesh.
I'm not defending PZ. I simply agree that Eric and Kent Hovind are frauds. In the case of Kent, he's even convicted of tax fraud. That's all.

Sheesh.
sheesh!
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:36 PM   #1818731  /  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleet-footed Urban Youth View Post
yo post ridiculous bullshit from the pahyrngulya comments or stfu
Heh. When they say, ... well, you know...
Quote:
jjgdenisrobert 29 May 2012 at 11:28 am
No, the right way to handle these people is to SUE THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM. Take them for all they are worth.
Or better yet: call the cops and make a criminal complaint for IP theft.
ETA: Haahahha:
Quote:
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven 29 May 2012 at 11:47 am
And, really, I don’t want to hear it about how that will just feed their feelings of being persecuted. They’ll find food for those feelings no matter what we do.
What's funny is not that someone proposes a legal remedy but that it is proposed to hurt the other side, not to remedy the situation. But they aren't involved in hate speech.. nooooo...
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:38 PM   #1818734  /  #383
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that's more like it. no one cares about pz's professional credentials.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:39 PM   #1818736  /  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleet-footed Urban Youth View Post
yo post ridiculous bullshit from the pahyrngulya comments or stfu
Heh. When they say, ... well, you know...
Quote:
jjgdenisrobert 29 May 2012 at 11:28 am
No, the right way to handle these people is to SUE THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM. Take them for all they are worth.
Or better yet: call the cops and make a criminal complaint for IP theft.
ETA: Haahahha:
Quote:
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven 29 May 2012 at 11:47 am
And, really, I don’t want to hear it about how that will just feed their feelings of being persecuted. They’ll find food for those feelings no matter what we do.
What's funny is not that someone proposes a legal remedy but that it is proposed to hurt the other side, not to remedy the situation. But they aren't involved in hate speech.. nooooo...
cannot wait until they come up with their own version of "suppressive person."

oh wait... "tone troll"...
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:40 PM   #1818737  /  #385
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tbh, describing an "invited" talk as a "keynote" talk doesn't rank terribly high in the dishonesty stakes with me.

I'm more bothered about the Pope PZ stuff.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:40 PM   #1818738  /  #386
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no one cares about pz's professional credentials.
^^^
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:49 PM   #1818746  /  #387
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eta: "'supposedly' within", lol. at least rrs lives on in the spirit if not the flesh.
that's pretty cold, excepting that it's also true

eta: i wonder how pz is going to feel when one of his acolytes tells him he's being compared to brian sapient
concern troll identified. bestow asshat avatar, send to trollville for ban pre-processing.

the comments section is a riot over there. i will cop to not really studying the pharyngula wiki, but i'm trying to figure out their precise cultspeak.

they take 'tone troll' to mean someone who is diverting discussion by claiming that a certain position or tactic or phrasing or attitude is not optimal in the war against religion (forget the insane way they actually use the word, which seems to be 'anyone who says something a fanboy wouldn't say is a tone troll,' i'm trying to figure out how they would define it.)

whereas a 'concern troll' is a false flag operation where someone who endorses MAGICAL THINKING or accomodationism with MAGICAL THINKING posts dishonestly in order to harm the cause of reason.

is this right? and febble and others have been branded 'concern trolls' when they post there what they post here? has pz translated the bible to numerical levels?
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:54 PM   #1818750  /  #388
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concern trolling is a pattern of behavior that predates the bishopric of phayrnyngulha, basically meaning to pretend to be sympathetic to a cause but express concern over methods, in order to sow dissent and create confusion

using the phrase "tone troll" seriously seems to be a complete disavowal of the entire concept of basic social protocol, at this point.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:57 PM   #1818751  /  #389
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social protocol is tainted by religious traditions and influences. it must be washed away by science.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:57 PM   #1818752  /  #390
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whereas a 'concern troll' is a false flag operation where someone who endorses MAGICAL THINKING or accomodationism with MAGICAL THINKING posts dishonestly in order to harm the cause God of reason.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:10 PM   #1818757  /  #391
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Um. I have no idea what you are talking about. It's warranted just from the information in the post assuming PZ didn't just make it up. That's why it's pot/kettle.

PZ is also a fraud. He lies about his professional qualifications. Um. That's fraud. No? It's ironic that one dishonest huckster calls another out. No?

Sheesh.
I'm sorry, now you're just grasping at straws.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:17 PM   #1818763  /  #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleet-footed Urban Youth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleet-footed Urban Youth View Post
yo post ridiculous bullshit from the pahyrngulya comments or stfu
Heh. When they say, ... well, you know...
Quote:
jjgdenisrobert 29 May 2012 at 11:28 am
No, the right way to handle these people is to SUE THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THEM. Take them for all they are worth.
Or better yet: call the cops and make a criminal complaint for IP theft.
ETA: Haahahha:
Quote:
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven 29 May 2012 at 11:47 am
And, really, I don’t want to hear it about how that will just feed their feelings of being persecuted. They’ll find food for those feelings no matter what we do.
What's funny is not that someone proposes a legal remedy but that it is proposed to hurt the other side, not to remedy the situation. But they aren't involved in hate speech.. nooooo...
cannot wait until they come up with their own version of "suppressive person."

oh wait... "tone troll"...
the myers/miscavige connection is complete
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:25 PM   #1818768  /  #393
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tbh, describing an "invited" talk as a "keynote" talk doesn't rank terribly high in the dishonesty stakes with me.

I'm more bothered about the Pope PZ stuff.
So you aren't terribly offended by his lie. Fine. I am.

He told it to fraudulently appear to be above reproach. Since I was reproaching him, and since he banned me for getting uppity regarding his lie, I am offended by his lie. It is still a lie. But that one about being a keynote speaker when really clearly he wasn't isn't the be all end all. His entire qualification list was fraudulently presented and I never even asked for it in the first place. He presented it to make it appear that he was a legitimate authority and I was an illegitimate authority. He told it to claim legitimacy and it was entirely false or irrelevant when I went to research it. Here's what I asked, the goading quality of the question is irrelevant. The question was:

Quote:
It’s been more than a decade since you’ve actually done any science hasn’t it? What kind of conferences still invite you anyway?
To which he replied:

Quote:
Got a publication coming out this fall, got a major grant award, was the keynote speaker at SDB in Hawaii, UNLV White Distinguished Lecture, taught a standard 3/2 load (including developing a new upper level elective), had 35 advisees, have 3 students working with me this summer on a new field project. Now, bwe4, your turn to recite your scientic[sic] accomplishments this year.
Note the word "your" at the end. That makes the claim that all, or even some of those things he listed were scientific accomplishments. If they weren't, well, then he fraudulently is claiming that they are. And, well, they aren't. Let's go down the list.

1. Got a publication coming out this fall.
*a science publication? I am willing to put $5 that it isn't. At any rate, if it isn't, this one makes me the most disgusted because there is only one context for that statement which isn't fraudulent and that is that it is a scientific publication.

2. got a major grant award
* A grant to conduct scientific research? Because that was his claim. Oh. I see. No. Not to conduct scientific research. Not that this isn't a wonderful thing. I think it is anyway, but he was smacking me down with all the scientific work he's done in JUST the last Year goshohmygosh. So, no. Misrepresented again.

3. was the keynote speaker at SDB in Hawaii,
Blatant flat out lie. He wasn't the keynote speaker nor was it possible to confuse his slot as a keynote slot.
http://www3.jabsom.hawaii.edu/Grad_DRB/sdb/program.html
Quote:
[thursday]19:00-20:00 Keynote Lecture - Peter Koopman (University of Queensland, Australia) "Lymphatic vascular development: Molecular genetics, developmental biology and disease therapy"
Quote:
[friday]
  • 07:30-08:30 (Continental breakfast will be provided)
  • 08:30-10:00 Session 1: Stem Cells in Development and Regeneration (Chair: Monika Ward [Univ. Hawaii])
    08:30-09:00 Venugopala Reddy Gonehal (UC Riverside) "Systems level dynamics of cell interactions in plant stem cell niches: Live imaging and microgenomics"
    09:00-09:20 Kate Lynn Jaremko (Graduate student, Univ. Hawaii) "Regulation of developmental competence and commitment during endoderm and neuroectoderm differentiation in human embryonic stem cells"
    09:20-09:40 Jonathan M. Riel (Graduate student, Univ. Hawaii) "Functional deficiency of the mouse Y gene Sly leads to sperm DNA damage and abnormal chromatin packaging"
    09:40-10:00 Catherine D. McCusker (Postdoc, UC Irvine) “Insights into the establishment of positional information in the limb blastema”
  • 10:00-10:30 Refreshment Break
  • 10:30-12:00 Session 2: Pattern Formation (Chair: Vernadeth Alarcon [Univ. Hawaii])
    10:30-11:00 Vernadeth Alarcon (Univ. Hawaii) "Cell polarity and differentiation in the early mouse embryo"
    11:00-11:30 Magdalena Zernicka-Goetz (Univ. of Cambridge, UK) "Mechanism behind formation of distinct cell lineages in the mouse embryo"
    11:30-11:50 Saori Haigo (Graduate student, UC Berkeley) "Global tissue rotation: a novel polarized morphogenetic movement that controls tissue elongation and egg shape in Drosophila"
    11:50-12:10 Ankita Das (Graduate student, Univ. of Southern California) "A Bmp-Id2a-Twist1-Fli1a network specifies ectomesenchyme from neural crest"
  • 12:10-13:30 Lunch Break and Poster Session (Lunch will be provided; ODD NUMBER presenters should be by the poster after a quick bite!)
  • 13:30-15:00 Session 3: Education Session (Chair: Mark Martindale [Univ. Hawaii])
    13:30-14:00 Elizabeth Vallen (Swarthmore College) "Career opportunities in liberal arts colleges"
    14:00-14:30 Robert Nissen (California State University Los Angeles) "Research in a predominantly undergraduate setting"
    *** 14:30-15:00 Paul Z. Myers (Univ. of Minnesota) "New worlds of science education and outreach, from Blogtopia to the Twitterverse"
  • 15:00-15:30 Refreshment Break
*See where PZ is there? Also, again, note the topic. Again, my participation on TR is equivalent. Not Science.

4. UNLV White Distinguished Lecture,
*Maybe this is about science???

5. taught a standard 3/2 load (including developing a new upper level elective),
*WTF?

6. had 35 advisees,
*WT[even more]F?

7. have 3 students working with me this summer on a new field project.
* If that project is about atheism rather than actual science, and he is doing it in a professional capacity, then he really should be fired. I sincerely hope it isn't. Given his track record of inexcusable fraudulence above, I cannot assume that it really is a scientific project. It would almost be more shocking if it were honest.

Which means that number 1 is unknown but we all know he isn't doing any science so the odds of it being scientific research are very low. And number 7 is too disturbing to suspect him of not being scientific but I would definitely like to know because I think it's pretty plain that it is not safe to take him at his word.

Which, once I put it that way, are you sure you still don't mind his little lie?

At the very least, I wonder, do you think he owes me an apology for being dishonest to me in a setting where the dishonesty was used as a means of force?
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:27 PM   #1818771  /  #394
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Um. I have no idea what you are talking about. It's warranted just from the information in the post assuming PZ didn't just make it up. That's why it's pot/kettle.

PZ is also a fraud. He lies about his professional qualifications. Um. That's fraud. No? It's ironic that one dishonest huckster calls another out. No?

Sheesh.
I'm sorry, now you're just grasping at straws.
lol. Can't help it. Anything to get this dead rotting porcupine wrapped in razor wire outta my ass.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:30 PM   #1818775  /  #395
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i forget was there battery acid involved in this porcupine rape or not?
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:33 PM   #1818779  /  #396
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Ohhai. I just realized. Ive never seen shizzle and pharyngula commenters posting at the same time!
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:37 PM   #1818784  /  #397
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concern trolling is a pattern of behavior that predates the bishopric of phayrnyngulha, basically meaning to pretend to be sympathetic to a cause but express concern over methods, in order to sow dissent and create confusion

using the phrase "tone troll" seriously seems to be a complete disavowal of the entire concept of basic social protocol, at this point.
someone saying "keep it down" at work because you're getting angry over the phrase "soul mate" is so oppressive and accomadationist.

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Old 05-29-2012, 07:59 PM   #1818813  /  #398
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IT'S NOT JUST A PHRASE, DAD!
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:02 PM   #1818819  /  #399
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IT'S NOT JUST A PHRASE, DAD!
I WISH WE COULD SUE THE FUCKERS WHO USE IT INTO PENNILESS SERVITUDE OF THE SUPERIOR ATHEISTS!

ETA: JUST LIKE MLK AND GANDHI WOULD'VE DONE111!
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:03 PM   #1818821  /  #400
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reason help anyone around these people if somebody sneezes
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