Frenemies of TalkRational:
Nontheist Nexus |  Rants'n'Raves |  Secular Cafe |  Council of Ex-Muslims |  The Skeptical Zone |  rationalia |  Rational Skepticism |  Atheists Today | 
TalkRational  

FAQ Rules Staff List Calendar RSS
Go Back   TalkRational > Town Hall > The TalkRational Charter

The TalkRational Charter The charter polls and related discussions

View Poll Results: Please vote to approve or disapprove this charter section revision
Yea 46 93.88%
Nay 3 6.12%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-08-2009, 07:37 PM   #547575  /  #1
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default Charter Revision Ratification Vote - Section 1: Alterations

Please vote to either approve or reject the following Charter section revision and offer commentary or criticism if you wish.

For changes to policies which are directly addressed in the original Charter, an exact statement of the relevant section of the Charter, with the proposed change highlighted, must be offered in the Town Hall as a poll, which will be open for two weeks. Any vote of over 75% of voting members, after a 2-week polling period, is sufficient to amend the Charter. Upon which the proposed change is added to that section, noted as a numbered amendment, and any superseded parts of the original Charter will be removed.

If you wish to change your vote at some point during the discussion, please send a request to me through a private message and I can make an adjustment.





Quote:
The Talk Rational Charter

This charter is a collection of principles limiting what rules and procedures can be made.
Rules, procedures and interpretations of rules may not contradict any part of this charter.


1) Alterations

(1.1) Changes to this charter must be ratified by member vote.
(1.2) Adding, removing, or changing of text in the charter requires a 75% majority.
(1.3) Charter revision polls must remain open for at least 2 weeks, and may remain open longer if member participaton is low.
(1.4) No change to the charter, the rules, or the procedures may take effect retroactively.
For comparison purposes, the original charter section dealing with alterations is this:


Quote:

Charter Ratifications and Changes

The original Charter, and any subsequent changes made to that Charter, must be ratified by the Talk Rational! community. The original Charter must also be ratified by a staff vote, although subsequent alterations do not.

A quorum of either 100 members, or 25% of active members (whichever is larger) is needed to ratify the Charter. (Active members are those who have posted in the previous 30 days, at the time the Charter is put up for ratification.) For the original Charter, a simple majority is needed to ratify each section. That vote will be recorded and inserted into the Charter for purposes of record-keeping.

This Charter may be changed or added to, if the community of TalkRational! so desires.

For changes to policies which are directly addressed in the original Charter, an exact statement of the relevant section of the Charter, with the proposed change highlighted, must be offered in the Town Hall as a poll, which will be open for two weeks. Any vote of over 75% of voting members, after a 2-week polling period, is sufficient to amend the Charter. Upon which the proposed change is added to that section, noted as a numbered amendment, and any superseded parts of the original Charter will be removed.

For policies which are not directly addressed by the original Charter, a plurality of voters must approve, whereupon the new policy becomes part of the Charter, and added as a numbered amendment in the Amendments section.

At no time will any amendment to this charter, or to the general rules, policies and procedures, take effect retroactively.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.

Last edited by ravenscape; 07-14-2009 at 09:08 PM.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-09-2009, 06:50 PM   #548419  /  #2
Apostate1970
Senior Member
 
Apostate1970's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 938
Apostate1970
Default

Why is it being made easier to change the charter? I'm inclined to vote no since I suspect that would cause problems.
Apostate1970 is offline   topbottom
Old 07-10-2009, 01:18 AM   #548814  /  #3
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

In our limited experience with changing the charter, it's not all that hard to ratify the charter - it just takes time.

For instance, the original charter took 2 months to ratify. There was no length of time specified by the charter committee so it just sat out there collecting votes slowly but surely. Eventually most members and staff were so fed up that we were going to shut the polls down if enough votes weren't cast after 2 months. Fortunately, there was a small surge there at the end of the 2 months and the charter passed.

We try to have a robust discussion before polling a revision, but it seems like a lot of people will participate and bring up objections once a poll is attached, but not so many people take a good hard look before then.

Our goal is to wind up with a revision that members approve of, and to be able to modify the section again if we discover a flaw down the road. We're not perfect; all the participants at TR are amateurs at running a message board using a republic model. I don't know of another site that tries to do things quite the way things have evolved here. There isn't a blueprint or a how-to manual. We're making it up as we go along. And we're trying to make it up slowly so we don't get too far down the wrong path before we notice.

Looking this section over again right now, I see a potential problem that we didn't catch earlier. There is no time limit on the poll. IMO that's a step backwards. So, I'd like to require a 2 week time limit.

I don't know if 3/4 "Yes" is a good number or if 2/3 "Yes" is better. Or if 60% (a supermajority) is too low. The fact is, people tend to vote yes on these polls without paying a lot of attention. I don't think 75% will be any harder to attain than 60% if the revision makes any sort of sense at all.

Soooo...

I'm agnostic on the actual % yes as long as it's not 90% or something.

I think there should be a time limit for ratification polls. Otherwise how will we know when we're done?
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-10-2009, 02:14 PM   #549110  /  #4
daap-umop-bnp
don't follow me i'm lost
Mod: Philosophy
 
daap-umop-bnp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: we don't want to be free
Posts: 21,303
daap-umop-bnp
Default

Okay, you're having this conversation over here. As I said in the other thread, I agree that 60 vs. 75 is probably meaningless in the context of actual practice. So it could go either way, afaics.

2 weeks? Okay, but I actually think you're going to have trouble getting people to care enough to vote, so adding that condition to the quorum condition may present a high hurdle to get over. Personally, I would rather see the quorum go away and the time limit be added, because I think that the quorum condition could block trivial (and therefore boring and therefore not conducive to participation in polling) changes from being made, while the time limit will actually make the process expeditious.

Despite Apostate's concern, the quorum actually makes it harder to change the charter, not easier.

eta: Yes, I said 'actually' like 4 or 5 times in this post. And I'm chewing gum and snapping bubbles.
__________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGKTPMm0oAU
daap-umop-bnp is offline   topbottom
Old 07-10-2009, 05:07 PM   #549273  /  #5
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Yeah. I agree that the quorum is going to be a much larger hurdle. I'm actually kind of worried that we'd require 25% of active members to vote on charter amendments. And thinking about it, requiring 25% in 2 weeks time is probably impossible to achieve in a charter vote, based on previous votes.

Hmm. Good thing the two week limit was dropped.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-10-2009, 11:43 PM   #549494  /  #6
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Just as a baseline, the charter has never been as easy to revise as it is right now as result of the revision in January:

Quote:
For changes to policies which are directly addressed in the original Charter, an exact statement of the relevant section of the Charter, with the proposed change highlighted, must be offered in the Town Hall as a poll, which will be open for two weeks. Any vote of over 75% of voting members, after a 2-week polling period, is sufficient to amend the Charter. Upon which the proposed change is added to that section, noted as a numbered amendment, and any superseded parts of the original Charter will be removed.
Because there is no minimum number of votes required. A 75% percentage approval historically has been no big deal to achieve, so dropping it to 60% is not really a big barrier.

This revision will make the charter as difficult to change as it was to initially adopt. I don't know if that's really what we were trying to accomplish with this revision.

It's making me a little nervous, tbh.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-13-2009, 02:38 PM   #550969  /  #7
daap-umop-bnp
don't follow me i'm lost
Mod: Philosophy
 
daap-umop-bnp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: we don't want to be free
Posts: 21,303
daap-umop-bnp
Default

I share your concern. I think the quorum should be dropped entirely.
__________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGKTPMm0oAU
daap-umop-bnp is offline   topbottom
Old 07-13-2009, 02:51 PM   #550982  /  #8
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daap-umop-bnp View Post
I share your concern. I think the quorum should be dropped entirely.
And replaced with what, though? A higher percentage "yea"?
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-13-2009, 02:52 PM   #550983  /  #9
daap-umop-bnp
don't follow me i'm lost
Mod: Philosophy
 
daap-umop-bnp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: we don't want to be free
Posts: 21,303
daap-umop-bnp
Default

I think that would be reasonable.
__________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGKTPMm0oAU
daap-umop-bnp is offline   topbottom
Old 07-13-2009, 07:17 PM   #551338  /  #10
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

This would be a big change to a critical revision. IMO it would pretty much void the votes that have been posted so far.

If we remove the quorum and up the percentage to 75%, then I think everyone who has voted on this revision up so far should be contacted and asked if the revision changes their minds and they want their vote changed.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 01:30 PM   #551799  /  #11
JamesBannon
Back by popular request
 
JamesBannon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Somewhere to the left of sanity
Posts: 11,640
JamesBannon
Default

I'll save you the bother. My vote stands.
__________________
Rimmer: What's that poem? Now weary traveller rest your head, for just like me you're utterly dead.
JamesBannon is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 05:59 PM   #552105  /  #12
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

OK...

Changing from this:

Quote:
The Talk Rational Charter

This charter is a collection of principles limiting what rules and procedures can be made.
Rules, procedures and interpretations of rules may not contradict any part of this charter.


1) Alterations

(1.1) Changes to this charter must be ratified by member vote.
(1.2) 100 members or 25% of active members (whichever is larger) must vote.
(1.3) Active members are those who have posted in the previous 30 days as of the day the charter ratification poll is posted.
(1.4) Adding, removing, or changing of text in the charter requires a 60% majority.
(1.5) No change to the charter, the rules, or the procedures may take effect retroactively
To this:

Quote:
The Talk Rational Charter

This charter is a collection of principles limiting what rules and procedures can be made.
Rules, procedures and interpretations of rules may not contradict any part of this charter.


1) Alterations

(1.1) Changes to this charter must be ratified by member vote.
(1.2) Active members are those who have posted in the previous 30 days as of the day the charter ratification poll is posted.
(1.3) Adding, removing, or changing of text in the charter requires a 75% majority.
(1.4) Charter revision polls must remain open for at least 2 weeks, and may remain open longer if member participaton is low.
(1.5) No change to the charter, the rules, or the procedures may take effect retroactively
Instead of a hard quorum number, I've added a stipulation that the poll will be open for at least 2 weeks, with an option for longer, and that the percentage "yes" must be at least 75%.

I'll PM all the people who have voted so far, to let them know about the change and find out if they would like to change their vote as a result.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 07:09 PM   #552216  /  #13
PGP_Protector
Administrator
SysAdmin
 
PGP_Protector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,016
PGP_Protector
Default

My vote stands.
PGP_Protector is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 07:44 PM   #552263  /  #14
[serious]
I lack inactivity
Abyss Champion, Bucy Aces Champion, Boom Town Champion, Armored Ashura Casual Champion, 9 Ball Connect Champion
 
[serious]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,065
[serious]
Default

wait, why are we changing the text of what we are voting on in the middle of the vote? There is no way this vote can be legitimate in either direction at this point. I would recommend scrapping this vote and introducing a new question. Before we do that we should actually debate (not in the vote thread) which version is better.
__________________
[/serious]
[serious] is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 07:57 PM   #552296  /  #15
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by [serious] View Post
wait, why are we changing the text of what we are voting on in the middle of the vote? There is no way this vote can be legitimate in either direction at this point. I would recommend scrapping this vote and introducing a new question. Before we do that we should actually debate (not in the vote thread) which version is better.
I've notified everyone who has voted so far. I think if there's a good deal of discussion and further changes, we will definitely need to restart this poll.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 09:06 PM   #552451  /  #16
Teshi
screedly deedly dee
 
Teshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14,071
Teshi
Default

Why is this

Quote:
(1.2) Active members are those who have posted in the previous 30 days as of the day the charter ratification poll is posted.
still included after removing the quorum stipulation?
Teshi is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 09:07 PM   #552453  /  #17
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

because I'm not paying enough attention.

I'll remove it.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-14-2009, 09:08 PM   #552456  /  #18
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Quote:
(1.2) Active members are those who have posted in the previous 30 days as of the day the charter ratification poll is posted.
has been removed, and the sections renumbered.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-15-2009, 07:27 AM   #552942  /  #19
Izdaari
missional Angloluthicostal
 
Izdaari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pacific NW, USA
Posts: 548
Izdaari
Default

Alrighty. That works for me.
__________________
Man's ego is inflated, his laws are outdated, they don't apply no more
You can't rely no more to be standing around waiting
In the home of the brave, Jefferson turning over in his grave
Fools glorifying themselves, trying to manipulate Satan
And there's a slow, slow train coming up around the bend.
Izdaari is offline   topbottom
Old 07-15-2009, 12:55 PM   #552996  /  #20
[serious]
I lack inactivity
Abyss Champion, Bucy Aces Champion, Boom Town Champion, Armored Ashura Casual Champion, 9 Ball Connect Champion
 
[serious]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,065
[serious]
Default

I'd probably leave it at 60%, but not a big deal.
__________________
[/serious]
[serious] is offline   topbottom
Old 07-15-2009, 11:25 PM   #553737  /  #21
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Note for validating the poll: Per PM, I changed Rancid's vote.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-16-2009, 07:38 AM   #554106  /  #22
[serious]
I lack inactivity
Abyss Champion, Bucy Aces Champion, Boom Town Champion, Armored Ashura Casual Champion, 9 Ball Connect Champion
 
[serious]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,065
[serious]
Default

We really should do it over regardless. I very much doubt that all 30 people have confirmed their agreement to the new proposal. These things shouldn't be edited after they are posted at all.
__________________
[/serious]
[serious] is offline   topbottom
Old 07-16-2009, 11:54 AM   #554144  /  #23
Old Woman in Purple
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NW 'burbs of Chicago
Posts: 1,168
Old Woman in Purple
Default

My vote stands.
Old Woman in Purple is offline   topbottom
Old 07-16-2009, 01:09 PM   #554190  /  #24
ravenscape
trigger warning
Match Around the World Champion, Duncan Castle Defense Champion, Pro Football History and Stats Champion Into the West
 
ravenscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norton's Empire
Posts: 80,589
ravenscape
Send a message via MSN to ravenscape
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by [serious] View Post
We really should do it over regardless. I very much doubt that all 30 people have confirmed their agreement to the new proposal. These things shouldn't be edited after they are posted at all.
So far, 4 people out of 30 haven't read their PMs. Of the ones who read the PMs, I've heard back either via PM or via this thread from 11 of them. So far, one person has requested that their vote be changed. The other 10 indicated their vote can stand.
__________________
It's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.
ravenscape is offline   topbottom
Old 07-16-2009, 06:14 PM   #554443  /  #25
Gojira
King of the Monsters!
 
Gojira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sunny Sandwell
Posts: 1,201
Gojira
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by [serious] View Post
We really should do it over regardless. I very much doubt that all 30 people have confirmed their agreement to the new proposal. These things shouldn't be edited after they are posted at all.
So far, 4 people out of 30 haven't read their PMs. Of the ones who read the PMs, I've heard back either via PM or via this thread from 11 of them. So far, one person has requested that their vote be changed. The other 10 indicated their vote can stand.
Ooops, that's what I get for missing staff meetings

My vote stands
__________________
History shows again and again how nature points up the folly of men!
Blue Oyster Cult - Godzilla
Gojira is offline   topbottom
 

  TalkRational > Town Hall > The TalkRational Charter

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2008 - 2014, TalkRational.org