Frenemies of TalkRational:
Nontheist Nexus |  Rants'n'Raves |  Secular Cafe |  Council of Ex-Muslims |  The Skeptical Zone |  rationalia |  Rational Skepticism |  Atheists Today | 
TalkRational  

FAQ Rules Staff List Calendar RSS
Go Back   TalkRational > Discussion > Politics and Current Affairs

Politics and Current Affairs For political discussions and mudwrestling

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-31-2010, 01:53 PM   #950071  /  #26
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ch-us-1.293089

Quote:
The commandos, who intercepted the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara after it ignored orders to turn back, said they encountered violent resistance from activists armed with sticks and knives. According to the soldiers, the activists threw one of their comrades from the upper deck to the lower after they boarded.

Activists attacked a commando with iron bars as he descended onto the ship from a helicopter, the army said. The IDF said its rules of engagement allowed troops to open fire in what it called a "life-threatening situation".

The soldiers said they were forced to open fire after the activists struck one of their comrades in the head and trampled on him. A senior field commander ordered the soldiers then to respond with fire, a decision which the commandos said received full backing the military echelon.
Note: Haaretz is pretty left-wing and highly critical of the Israeli government.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 01:58 PM   #950078  /  #27
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

My guess is that most of the boats were in fact meant to be peaceful protest and really were only carrying aid, but at least one was not. When it comes to the Israel-Palestine thing, a lot of leftists are really not careful who they associate with, which is why we have people like George Galloway donating money to Hamas and speakers at American rallies for peace in the Middle East calling for genocide against Jews, both in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Problem is, I really don't think that the Western left is going to acknowledge that they're being used.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:03 PM   #950085  /  #28
ksen
Unsullied
Admin; Master of Coin
 
ksen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Eden
Posts: 37,475
ksen
Default

Why don't these flotillas just land in Egypt and bring the aid in through the Egypt/Gaza border?

Seems to me they just want an ugly confrontation with the IDF.
__________________
". . . organized greed always defeats disorganized democracy" - Matt Taibbi
ksen is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:04 PM   #950086  /  #29
Patronus Potter
When in Rome...
Space Invaders Champion, Asteroids Champion
 
Patronus Potter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,718
Patronus Potter
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Black View Post
While I don't like the idea of civvies being killed in this way, I can hardly imagine that a flotilla of ships carrying stuff to North Korea or somewhere like that would be let through easily either. That said, Israel is pretty disgusting in that it only allows less than a quarter of the humanitarian aid through that is needed.
North Korea and places like it are routinely condemned in the western press when they kill civilians, especially when it happens outside their borders and territorial waters. With Israel and the IDF, though, doing the very same thing for the very same reason gets a different response. It's a blatant double standard but as long as they can get away with blaming the victims while crying anti-semitism, they'll keep on doing it.
Um... I think Gaza is North Korea in this analogy.
Patronus Potter is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:05 PM   #950088  /  #30
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksen View Post
Why don't these flotillas just land in Egypt and bring the aid in through the Egypt/Gaza border?

Seems to me they just want an ugly confrontation with the IDF.
No shit.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:05 PM   #950090  /  #31
el jefe
Senior Member
TR Pundit
 
el jefe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 26,938
el jefe
Default

posting itt
el jefe is online now   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:07 PM   #950091  /  #32
Linus
opportunity of an erection
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,001
Linus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
My guess is that most of the boats were in fact meant to be peaceful protest and really were only carrying aid, but at least one was not.
Indeed, taking the Haaretz quote above at face value, one boat was carrying sticks and knives.
Linus is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:13 PM   #950095  /  #33
Species8472
Persistence is futile
 
Species8472's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,440
Species8472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
My guess is that most of the boats were in fact meant to be peaceful protest and really were only carrying aid, but at least one was not. When it comes to the Israel-Palestine thing, a lot of leftists are really not careful who they associate with, which is why we have people like George Galloway donating money to Hamas and speakers at American rallies for peace in the Middle East calling for genocide against Jews, both in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Problem is, I really don't think that the Western left is going to acknowledge that they're being used.
The Norwegian far-left jumps at any chance to spread Israel-hatred, while the Norwegian far-right is blinded by anything the US says and does. I can't stand "fringe" (in lack of a better word) politics in any form.

Sure, Israel fucked up, again, and international reactions are needed, and they need to be told they cannot do whatever the fuck they please. However picking a side in such a conflict where there are extremists on either side is pretty dumb. I cannot support Israeli "lebensraum" politics nor Palestinian terrorism.
__________________
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
Species8472 is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:14 PM   #950096  /  #34
rigorist
Wartime Consigliere
Mod: The Rat's Nest
 
rigorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Devil's Kilometre
Posts: 10,768
rigorist
Send a message via AIM to rigorist Send a message via MSN to rigorist
Default

Don't commit piracy on the high seas and maybe you won't get your head smashed.

So, dl, man . . . tell us all about how Israel gets a pass for boarding ships in international waters. And ksen, tell us about how the American government has responded to such acts in the past.
__________________
I told you not to stop. Now let's go.
rigorist is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:18 PM   #950097  /  #35
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

In that case, I think "sticks" is being mistranslated, because it's being further clarified as "baseball bats and metal pipes." The soldiers are referring to this as an attempted lynch, which does not sound like "peaceful activism" at all. Additionally, it sounds like the Israelis only responded with live fire after two of the soldiers were incapacitated and their guns taken and fired. The video released thus far seems to fit with what the soldiers were saying.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:19 PM   #950100  /  #36
Patronus Potter
When in Rome...
Space Invaders Champion, Asteroids Champion
 
Patronus Potter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,718
Patronus Potter
Default

They should have just fired torpedoes like North Korea, then they would have plausible deniability.
Patronus Potter is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:24 PM   #950107  /  #37
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472 View Post
Sure, Israel fucked up, again,
You're right. Those soldiers should have stuck with the nonlethal rounds when they were being shot at. Jewish corpses being paraded around this boat would have made for a much more appealing news story.

Quote:
and international reactions are needed,
The international reaction needs to be that the left needs to learn to pick their friends carefully. This isn't a "radical left" problem. This is a mainstream left problem.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:25 PM   #950109  /  #38
el jefe
Senior Member
TR Pundit
 
el jefe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 26,938
el jefe
Default

why can't they settle this like good christians?
el jefe is online now   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:26 PM   #950110  /  #39
ksen
Unsullied
Admin; Master of Coin
 
ksen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Eden
Posts: 37,475
ksen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't commit piracy on the high seas and maybe you won't get your head smashed.

So, dl, man . . . tell us all about how Israel gets a pass for boarding ships in international waters. And ksen, tell us about how the American government has responded to such acts in the past.
Shut the fuck up Donny.
__________________
". . . organized greed always defeats disorganized democracy" - Matt Taibbi
ksen is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:28 PM   #950112  /  #40
Species8472
Persistence is futile
 
Species8472's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,440
Species8472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472 View Post
Sure, Israel fucked up, again,
You're right. Those soldiers should have stuck with the nonlethal rounds when they were being shot at. Jewish corpses being paraded around this boat would have made for a much more appealing news story.
They had no business being on board in the first place.
__________________
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
Species8472 is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:30 PM   #950115  /  #41
rigorist
Wartime Consigliere
Mod: The Rat's Nest
 
rigorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Devil's Kilometre
Posts: 10,768
rigorist
Send a message via AIM to rigorist Send a message via MSN to rigorist
Default

Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
__________________
I told you not to stop. Now let's go.
rigorist is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:31 PM   #950117  /  #42
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Species8472 View Post
Sure, Israel fucked up, again,
You're right. Those soldiers should have stuck with the nonlethal rounds when they were being shot at. Jewish corpses being paraded around this boat would have made for a much more appealing news story.
They had no business being on board in the first place.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:32 PM   #950119  /  #43
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
What has the response of the US historically been to vessels trying to smuggle goods and people illegally into its territories?
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:41 PM   #950126  /  #44
Jet Black
Finding Things Out
Mod: ASS, LSD, Phys Sci
 
Jet Black's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 29,145
Jet Black has disabled comments
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
What has the response of the US historically been to vessels trying to smuggle goods and people illegally into its territories?
The Gaza Strip is Israel?
__________________
The Feynmann Algorithm: (1) Write down the problem (2) Think real hard (3) Write down the solution
Jet Black is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:46 PM   #950132  /  #45
el jefe
Senior Member
TR Pundit
 
el jefe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 26,938
el jefe
Default

haha owned
el jefe is online now   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:47 PM   #950133  /  #46
ksen
Unsullied
Admin; Master of Coin
 
ksen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Eden
Posts: 37,475
ksen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
Paying tribute.
__________________
". . . organized greed always defeats disorganized democracy" - Matt Taibbi
ksen is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:51 PM   #950135  /  #47
teeth!
trollo trollini trollus est
Commissar
 
teeth!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: talkrationalo trollenda est
Posts: 47,661
teeth!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Black View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
What has the response of the US historically been to vessels trying to smuggle goods and people illegally into its territories?
The Gaza Strip is Israel?
If it's not, then the firing of rockets over the border are an act of war, rather than terrorism, especially considering that those rockets are being fired by the standing government in Gaza.

You can't have it both ways.
__________________
In the land of the talentless, the one-trick pony is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora View Post
I suppose it's good for society that I'm not an alpha wolf then.
teeth! is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:56 PM   #950140  /  #48
rigorist
Wartime Consigliere
Mod: The Rat's Nest
 
rigorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Devil's Kilometre
Posts: 10,768
rigorist
Send a message via AIM to rigorist Send a message via MSN to rigorist
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
What has the response of the US historically been to vessels trying to smuggle goods and people illegally into its territories?
"High seas". It matters.

Israel's legalistic arguments tend to fall flat when it does retarded stuff like this.
__________________
I told you not to stop. Now let's go.
rigorist is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:57 PM   #950141  /  #49
rigorist
Wartime Consigliere
Mod: The Rat's Nest
 
rigorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Devil's Kilometre
Posts: 10,768
rigorist
Send a message via AIM to rigorist Send a message via MSN to rigorist
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigorist View Post
Don't be a copycat, ksen.

What has the response of the United States historically been to the armed boarding of vessels on the high seas?
Paying tribute.
USS Chesapeake
__________________
I told you not to stop. Now let's go.
rigorist is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Old 05-31-2010, 02:58 PM   #950143  /  #50
rigorist
Wartime Consigliere
Mod: The Rat's Nest
 
rigorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Devil's Kilometre
Posts: 10,768
rigorist
Send a message via AIM to rigorist Send a message via MSN to rigorist
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Black View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlx2 View Post

What has the response of the US historically been to vessels trying to smuggle goods and people illegally into its territories?
The Gaza Strip is Israel?
If it's not, then the firing of rockets over the border are an act of war, rather than terrorism, especially considering that those rockets are being fired by the standing government in Gaza.

You can't have it both ways.
So?
__________________
I told you not to stop. Now let's go.
rigorist is offline   Reply With Quote topbottom
Reply

  TalkRational > Discussion > Politics and Current Affairs

Tags
could sanshou be the one?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2008 - 2014, TalkRational.org