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Physical Sciences Dangerous meddling in things man was not meant to know. Physics, Astronomy, Chemistry, etc.

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Old 03-18-2011, 04:48 AM   #1345467  /  #301
F X
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Forgive me for getting back on the sarcasm horse one more time.

Radiation coming? Not to worry? Sure.

But here's a fucking brilliant idea for you. Yes you, US government, that runs on the taxes of millions of Americans.

Why don't you take a few of them really expensive jets of yours, and fly them out to where the "hardly noticeable" cloud of radioactive dust is, and measure it? You know, fly around and collect air samples and see what the barely noticable amount is?

Rather than sitting around with your finger up your collective ass waiting to see what it is. When it finally arrives.

How's that for a suggestion? Maybe do a little defensive action, rather than waiting to see.

Or does the technology for that not exist yet?
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:22 AM   #1345498  /  #302
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Yeah, and this give us the bearing and a time when everyone on the west coast can defensively exhale in the direction of the plume to shunt it aside to Canada.

Or Alaska.

Or some other non-American place...
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:35 AM   #1345508  /  #303
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Just watched a bit of the radioactive cloud pass over Denver. No big deal.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:47 PM   #1345635  /  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean W View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F X View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ml?ref=science

lets you see the plume of radioactive particles getting ready to hit California Friday.
Yeah, but consider the dissipation gradient depicted. Researchers have calculated that a mother holding her baby transmits 12 million times the radioactivity than that plume will by the time it gets to CA.
Yes, but what about the radiation the baby is giving off. Ever wonder about that pink glow? And that stuff that comes out of their butts is definitely both toxic and radioactive.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:13 PM   #1345641  /  #305
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The exodus of people from Japan may actually help the real estate markets elsewhere.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:34 PM   #1345651  /  #306
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Quote:
The Consequence of Cesium-137 Release

A 400 t PWR pool holds about 10 times more long-lived radioactivity than a reactor core. A radioactive release from such a pool would cause catastrophic consequences. One major concern is the fission product cesium-137 (Cs-137), which made a major contribution (about three quarters) to the long-term radiological impact of the 1986 Chernobyl accident. A spent fuel pool would contain tens of million curies of Cs-137. Cs-137 has a 30 year half-life; it is relatively volatile and a potent land contaminant.

In comparison, the April 1986 Chernobyl accident released about 2 Mega Curies (MCi) Cs-137 into the atmosphere from the core of the 1,000 MWe unit 4. It is estimated that over 100,000 residents were permanently evacuated because of contamination by Cs-137.The total area of the radiation-control zone is about 10,000 kmē, in which the contamination level is greater than 15 Ci/kmē of Cs-137. [6]

A typical 1 GWe PWR core contains about 80 t fuels. Each year about one third of the core fuel is discharged into the pool. A pool with 15 year storage capacity will hold about 400 t spent fuel. To estimate the Cs-137 inventory in the pool, for example, we assume the Cs137 inventory at shutdown is about 0.1 MCi/tU with a burn-up of 50,000 MWt-day/tU, thus the pool with 400 t of ten year old SNF would hold about 33 MCi Cs-137. [7]

Assuming a 50-100% Cs137 release during a spent fuel fire, [8] the consequence of the Cs-137 exceed those of the Chernobyl accident 8-17 times (2MCi release from Chernobyl). Based on the wedge model, the contaminated land areas can be estimated. [9]

For example, for a scenario of a 50% Cs-137 release from a 400 t SNF pool, about 95,000 kmē (as far as 1,350 km) would be contaminated above 15 Ci/kmē (as compared to 10,000 kmē contaminated area above 15 Ci/kmē at Chernobyl).

Thus, it is necessary to take security measures to prevent such an event from happening.
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/...terrorism.html
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:21 PM   #1345683  /  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F X View Post
Quote:
The Consequence of Cesium-137 Release

A 400 t PWR pool holds about 10 times more long-lived radioactivity than a reactor core. A radioactive release from such a pool would cause catastrophic consequences. One major concern is the fission product cesium-137 (Cs-137), which made a major contribution (about three quarters) to the long-term radiological impact of the 1986 Chernobyl accident. A spent fuel pool would contain tens of million curies of Cs-137. Cs-137 has a 30 year half-life; it is relatively volatile and a potent land contaminant.

In comparison, the April 1986 Chernobyl accident released about 2 Mega Curies (MCi) Cs-137 into the atmosphere from the core of the 1,000 MWe unit 4. It is estimated that over 100,000 residents were permanently evacuated because of contamination by Cs-137.The total area of the radiation-control zone is about 10,000 kmē, in which the contamination level is greater than 15 Ci/kmē of Cs-137. [6]

A typical 1 GWe PWR core contains about 80 t fuels. Each year about one third of the core fuel is discharged into the pool. A pool with 15 year storage capacity will hold about 400 t spent fuel. To estimate the Cs-137 inventory in the pool, for example, we assume the Cs137 inventory at shutdown is about 0.1 MCi/tU with a burn-up of 50,000 MWt-day/tU, thus the pool with 400 t of ten year old SNF would hold about 33 MCi Cs-137. [7]

Assuming a 50-100% Cs137 release during a spent fuel fire, [8] the consequence of the Cs-137 exceed those of the Chernobyl accident 8-17 times (2MCi release from Chernobyl). Based on the wedge model, the contaminated land areas can be estimated. [9]

For example, for a scenario of a 50% Cs-137 release from a 400 t SNF pool, about 95,000 kmē (as far as 1,350 km) would be contaminated above 15 Ci/kmē (as compared to 10,000 kmē contaminated area above 15 Ci/kmē at Chernobyl).

Thus, it is necessary to take security measures to prevent such an event from happening.
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/...terrorism.html
You gotta hope for a win at Bingo, FX, so you can afford those reading for comprehension lessons.
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:25 PM   #1345687  /  #308
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Quote:
There is also some radionuclide data coming out of station RN38, in Takasaki/Gunma.

The station is operated by the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO) (see the long article I published yesterday on CTBTO data for more details on its data) and recorded many species of radionuclides on 15 March, including iodine-131 and Barium-140, with a preliminary estimate of the concentration of iodine-131 at 15 becquerels per cubic meter.

That's a fairly low dose. Radioactive iodine-131 was also detected at the Petropavlovsk station in Russia, but at fourfold-lower levels. That should pose no threat to human health, though its very presence is troubling.
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegrea...st_maps_o.html
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:42 PM   #1346174  /  #309
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Watching the CNN (turns head and spits) reporting, they keep repeating that there is no way to tell what is going on. Then they show the video from the drone/helicopter yesterday, and try to analyze shaking low res video. Trying to determine what is there.

Anyone with a brain is screaming at the TV, "Hey! Ever heard of an infrared camera? How about ultraviolet camera? I bet somebody even invented one that can detect x-rays, gamma rays and other radiation signatures. Why not fly one of them over the site?"

I mean, we can spot and kill people from 30 miles away, at night, based on infrared imaging. But you can't get a fucking drone to fly overhead with a thermal imaging camera? Or a fucking zoom lens? Nobody on the whole planet has a device that measure gamma rays?

Talk about being prepared for a nuclear disaster.

"Hey Bob, we might have a leak somewhere"

"Gee Joe, too bad nobody ever invented a device that can take pictures of anything other than visible light, then we could scan for it"

"Yeah Bob, I knows. Lets get out the Geiger counters and walk around the whole plant a few times."

"Someday we won't have to do this no more"

"Yep, someday"
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:50 PM   #1346184  /  #310
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Yeah, amazing, nobody has come up with a device that would detect radiation, except our village idiot.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:53 PM   #1346189  /  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F X View Post
Watching the CNN (turns head and spits) reporting, they keep repeating that there is no way to tell what is going on. Then they show the video from the drone/helicopter yesterday, and try to analyze shaking low res video. Trying to determine what is there.

Anyone with a brain is screaming at the TV, "Hey! Ever heard of an infrared camera? How about ultraviolet camera? I bet somebody even invented one that can detect x-rays, gamma rays and other radiation signatures. Why not fly one of them over the site?"

I mean, we can spot and kill people from 30 miles away, at night, based on infrared imaging. But you can't get a fucking drone to fly overhead with a thermal imaging camera? Or a fucking zoom lens? Nobody on the whole planet has a device that measure gamma rays?

Talk about being prepared for a nuclear disaster.

"Hey Bob, we might have a leak somewhere"

"Gee Joe, too bad nobody ever invented a device that can take pictures of anything other than visible light, then we could scan for it"

"Yeah Bob, I knows. Lets get out the Geiger counters and walk around the whole plant a few times."

"Someday we won't have to do this no more"

"Yep, someday"
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:07 PM   #1346198  /  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F X View Post
Watching the CNN (turns head and spits) reporting, they keep repeating that there is no way to tell what is going on. Then they show the video from the drone/helicopter yesterday, and try to analyze shaking low res video. Trying to determine what is there.

Anyone with a brain is screaming at the TV, "Hey! Ever heard of an infrared camera? How about ultraviolet camera? I bet somebody even invented one that can detect x-rays, gamma rays and other radiation signatures. Why not fly one of them over the site?"

I mean, we can spot and kill people from 30 miles away, at night, based on infrared imaging. But you can't get a fucking drone to fly overhead with a thermal imaging camera? Or a fucking zoom lens? Nobody on the whole planet has a device that measure gamma rays?

Talk about being prepared for a nuclear disaster.

"Hey Bob, we might have a leak somewhere"

"Gee Joe, too bad nobody ever invented a device that can take pictures of anything other than visible light, then we could scan for it"

"Yeah Bob, I knows. Lets get out the Geiger counters and walk around the whole plant a few times."

"Someday we won't have to do this no more"

"Yep, someday"
Quote:
Northrop Drone Flies Over Japan Reactor to Record Data
Mar 17, 2011 1:32 PM PT

A Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC) Global Hawk drone flew over Japan’s crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant today to collect data and imagery for the Japanese government, said U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz.

link
Theoretically it may be possible for F X to be a bigger dickhead, but practically it's difficult to imagine.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:07 PM   #1346199  /  #313
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The real worry right now is coal. It's far more dangerous than the 6 reactors and 300 tons of fuel rods at risk. Or is it 500 tons? Nobody knows it seems. They also can't find the blueprints of the plant, so we have to guess where the fuel rods might be.

And I checked, and it does appear that nobody in the entire world has any kind of remote controlled flying craft that can sense gamma radiation. Or x-rays, or ultraviolet light. But thanks to the wars, we do have the ability to view infrared, and they are diverting drones from the war effort to take a look at the plants in infrared.

So the engineers and other trying to save the plant can figure out where the fuel rods are.

It's so fucking reassuring to find out how prepared everybody is for a nuclear plant problem.

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Old 03-18-2011, 10:37 PM   #1346217  /  #314
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And I checked, and it does appear that nobody in the entire world has any kind of remote controlled flying craft that can sense gamma radiation. Or x-rays, or ultraviolet light. But thanks to the wars, we do have the ability to view infrared, and they are diverting drones from the war effort to take a look at the plants in infrared.
Maybe if you looked somewhere besides the inside of your own rectum:

Quote:
Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAVs)

Unlike drones, which are autonomous vehicles not requiring human intervention, UAVs are aircraft that do not carry human operators but still rely on humans to operate. They include fixed and rotary wing configurations and can be remotely operated or flown with varying degrees of autonomy. UAVs carry a wide variety of sensor payloads: Electro-Optics (EO); Infra-Red (IR); Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR); Signal and Communications Intelligence (SIGINT and COMINT); Chemical, Biological and Radiation (CBR) detection systems; and radio relay equipment.
Big list of UAV sensor payloadss

People on the ground over there are doing everything humanly possible to bring a serious problem under control. Many are going to get radiation illnesses, some will probably die. But because they don't send you a personal email update every 15 minutes that means they're all sitting around with their thumbs up their asses doing nothing.

You really are a dickhead F X. Major league.
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Old 03-19-2011, 01:19 AM   #1346336  /  #315
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Quote:
The Consequence of Cesium-137 Release

A spent fuel pool would contain tens of million curies of Cs-137. Cs-137 has a 30 year half-life; it is relatively volatile and a potent land contaminant.
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/...terrorism.html
That's actually kind of reassuring. Let's say there were 100,000,000 curies of Cs-137. With a half life of 30 years, there'd be less than 1 curie left after 800 years, hardly a tick of the second hand on the geological timescale.
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Old 03-19-2011, 04:44 AM   #1346502  /  #316
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This horrific accident, followed by a clusterfuck of unimaginable size, which now has the situation about as bad as it can get before there is nothing but the running and the screaming ... but let's not try to predict the future of this crisis, it will play out before us no matter.

But what's the bigger picture? Well, it's not hard to see.

Every nuclear power plant, every reactor, it needs to be babysat, it needs clear headed people always on the scene, and it needs power. A lot of power, when it is shut down. Not just to keep the pumps going and the reactor cool, all the spent fuel has to be also carefully tended, with pumps and heat exchangers. And water. And security. And this will always be true, as long as the reactor has fuel in it, and the fuel rods are stored there.

So almost every reactor (not counting the French, who are smart enough to ship their radioactive waste to another country) has not only the reactor, but the spent fuel rods that need constant attention, of all kinds. And power. In Japans case, lots of fossil fuel power, because when the reactor isn't going, there is no nuclear power. And all the reactors shut down when there is an earthquake. So it needs other plants that don't shut down.

Or, lots of fuel, and generators. In any case, every reactor and fuel storage is a constant. You can't walk away from it, and if anything happens to the people, the reactor, and the fuel will eventually become very very dangerous. Hundreds and hundreds of reactors, they all need to be guarded, and tended, and kept going, or it's disaster. If the people who run it all die, then it's disaster time. If they just all get real sick, it's disaster time. If something kills them all, it's disaster time.

If a natural disaster destroys the backups, it's disaster time. If anything goes wrong, with the old reactors, it's disaster time. Now of course a well running nuclear nation keeps the whole thing going, until it doesn't.

In this case, it's actually fortunate that the four reactors down the coast, just a little ways away, it's really fortunate they didn't also suffer the same tsunami induced fate. They also have all these fuel rods that have to be kept cool.

This disaster has made it clear on many levels that nuclear reactors are by design, a dangerous thing, that needs constant advanced care. Or, when things get bad, desperate soldiers with fire truck spraying water 24 hours a day. Just to keep things from melting down and burning up.

Am I against nuclear power? Not really. It's great. Until things go wrong. And things always go wrong, you can't avoid that. It might be decades from now, or it might be last week. But anybody who thinks you can design something that will never break, they are a fool.

I no longer support nuclear reactors for power plants. And I am adamant that we need to replace every last one of them, but first get rid of the spent fuel laying about in pools of water.

It's not a mystery that solar panels would probably be serving Japan much better now than nuclear power. If we put our minds to it, we can probably figure out how to create safe power, and do it cheaper.

Wind is good. So is about anything besides these nuclear reactors. It's just not worth the cost. You can still try to say nuclear was cheaper than anything else for Japan, except now it isn't. In the long run, nuclear isn't cheaper. It's just that the bastards who run them have put off the expensive part of the whole thing till later.
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Old 03-19-2011, 05:20 AM   #1346519  /  #317
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tl;dr
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Old 03-19-2011, 05:29 AM   #1346524  /  #318
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Good plan.
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Old 03-19-2011, 06:08 AM   #1346561  /  #319
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I thought your post made some excellent points FX. Not at all surprising of course, that the storage can is kicked down the road. That's what we do. Look at the economy, and predictions for 5+% growth soon to arrive and save the day. The next generation will figure out what to do with those spent rods, right? And if it means a bit of risk so that we can keep air-conditioning 5k square foot homes in the desert, so be it. I mean, just how much sacrifice can we expect the public to endure?

The bad news? Green tech ain't gonna get us even close in this decade. Takes a lot of oil to make it happen. Ever read Asimov's The Last Question? Short of a singularity it's pretty hard to escape entropy, even in fiction.
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Old 03-19-2011, 06:14 AM   #1346565  /  #320
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It's simply amazing that just a little over a hundred years ago, nobody had power plants at all. Or cars. And yet, people lived. Oh sure not like the Gods we resemble, but then, they also didn't have to deal with Wotan actually rising up for real every now and then.

Or knowing about every fucking disaster in the world as it happened.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:08 AM   #1346640  /  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F X View Post
This horrific accident, followed by a clusterfuck of unimaginable size, which now has the situation about as bad as it can get before there is nothing but the running and the screaming ...


Quote:
I no longer support nuclear reactors for power plants.
Sat. March 6th, obscure discussion site, breaking news: Local tard no longer supports nuclear reactors for power plants. CNN is on it.

Quote:
And I am adamant that we need to replace every last one of them
with

Quote:
If we put our minds to it, we can probably figure out how to create safe power, and do it cheaper.
Yes, if only someone would have thought about that.
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Old 03-19-2011, 02:58 PM   #1346798  /  #322
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This horrific accident, followed by a clusterfuck of unimaginable size, which now has the situation about as bad as it can get before there is nothing but the running and the screaming ...
Quote:
"We sincerely apologize ... for causing such a great concern and nuisance," said a statement from Masataka Shimizu, the president of Tokyo Electric.
HTH
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:00 PM   #1346800  /  #323
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This horrific accident...
It was a natural disaster, not an accident, that caused the present situation at Fukushima.
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:03 PM   #1346802  /  #324
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I thought your post made some excellent points FX. Not at all surprising of course, that the storage can is kicked down the road. That's what we do. Look at the economy, and predictions for 5+% growth soon to arrive and save the day. The next generation will figure out what to do with those spent rods, right? And if it means a bit of risk so that we can keep air-conditioning 5k square foot homes in the desert, so be it. I mean, just how much sacrifice can we expect the public to endure?

The bad news? Green tech ain't gonna get us even close in this decade. Takes a lot of oil to make it happen. Ever read Asimov's The Last Question? Short of a singularity it's pretty hard to escape entropy, even in fiction.
exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_X
It's simply amazing that just a little over a hundred years ago, nobody had power plants at all. Or cars. And yet, people lived.
"Boy, the way Glenn Miller played!
Songs that made the hit parade..."

A little over a hundred years ago there were fewer than 20% as many people living as now. Plans to "return to simpler times" involve the pesky detail of getting rid of 5 or 6 billion excess people.

Quote:
Oh sure not like the Gods we resemble...
I suspect that the lives of most of the 7 billion on the planet now are somewhat short of "divine", and not all that different from what they were a little over a hundred years ago.
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Old 03-19-2011, 04:40 PM   #1346860  /  #325
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You say that using a worldwide instant communication network, typed out on a super computer of some kind, (it could be a mobile computer as well), likely sitting in a comfortable safe building with controlled temperature, free of fear from war or famine.

I think we all want such a lifestyle to continue.
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