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Physical Sciences Dangerous meddling in things man was not meant to know. Physics, Astronomy, Chemistry, etc.

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Old 02-27-2012, 06:34 AM   #1719823  /  #876
recursive prophet
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Interesting catch on the rules of that contest Yev. Can't wait to see how El Jefe parses the word original. I imagine it will be something along the lines of coming up with an idea someone else had long before you but you weren't aware of it. (Remind me to tell you sometime how I had the original idea for passive solar water heaters back in the seventies. When I found a picture of one just like mine in a 1912 Farmer's Almanac though, I stopped thinking I originated the idea. If only I'd known that as long as I wasn't aware of that fact when I came up with the idea, it didn't matter. What is it they say about re-inventing the wheel?

And yes, it was truly awesome just how quickly that popcorn blew past I Ratant's cart, wasn't it? Did you see all the various kinds of model helicopters and fixed wing aircraft he made? Hard to comprehend how with his experience his prop cart would do so poorly and not even get close to wind speed, while BB went almost 3 times as fast, ain't it?
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:56 AM   #1719836  /  #877
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Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
You will never see them test one of their carts against something like popcorn or smoke puffs, because they know it will reveal the big LIE they have been telling for so long.
Here's a thought asshole... if we tested it against popcorn and smoke puffs, and it beat them, would you admit you're wrong?

Of course not. So why bother.

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And, when a ball is seen on the treadmill, doing what the cart does, suddenly the cart clowns claim that a ball can move at wind speed
It doesn't do what the cart does, and no one here ever said it can move at wind speed steady state - asshole.


Quote:
..and no rather than admit that a moving treadmill belt, which is rotating periodically as well as vibrating, is not equivalent to a flat surface that is in uniform motion.
Fucking idiot.

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But it seems finally all the LIES are starting to catch up with tiny sporky, a pathetic and weak character would literally steal candy from a baby!
Nope - but I'll volunteer to literally turn you inside out if you'd like.

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You are disgusting, spork!
Wow - some people really hate losing. I'll bet it was hard for you when your realized your crack-whore mother never planned to keep you.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:19 AM   #1719846  /  #878
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I wonder if the hidiots registered just so that they could vote against the cart on that site? I have not registered so I don't know how difficult it would be or how vigilant they are against people registering several times from one computer, but I would not put it past either Harold or humber to try to do this.

Ad for humber, two videos based on the raw data that shows during the test period the cart was going about as close to DDW as possible. Of course humber thinks the cart has a memory:


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Old 02-27-2012, 07:30 AM   #1719850  /  #879
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Originally Posted by spork View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
You will never see them test one of their carts against something like popcorn or smoke puffs, because they know it will reveal the big LIE they have been telling for so long.
Here's a thought asshole... if we tested it against popcorn and smoke puffs, and it beat them, would you admit you're wrong?
Not much need. IR has done his part, and your cart travels 5mph in a wind that blows a leaf to 20mph.

You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:18 AM   #1719865  /  #880
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Originally Posted by Subduction Zone View Post

I wonder if the hidiots registered just so that they could vote against the cart on that site? I have not registered so I don't know how difficult it would be or how vigilant they are against people registering several times from one computer, but I would not put it past either Harold or humber to try to do this.
That would be similar to sending copies of humber’s posts to your brother at physics forum, to discredit him and get him banned. Only a slime ball would even think of doing something like that!

Oh, very nice animations. You got any for faster than light?
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Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.
Sporky: The joke is not on me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:20 AM   #1719866  /  #881
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Originally Posted by humber View Post

You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
With a brick headed straight at it!
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Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.
Sporky: The joke is not on me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:37 AM   #1719870  /  #882
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Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
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Originally Posted by Subduction Zone View Post

I wonder if the hidiots registered just so that they could vote against the cart on that site? I have not registered so I don't know how difficult it would be or how vigilant they are against people registering several times from one computer, but I would not put it past either Harold or humber to try to do this.
That would be similar to sending copies of humber’s posts to your brother at physics forum, to discredit him and get him banned. Only a slime ball would even think of doing something like that!

Oh, very nice animations. You got any for faster than light?
If the project were of genuine interest, it would receive a lot of comments. From more than 2800 views, the cart has garnered two comments.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:48 AM   #1719872  /  #883
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Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by humber View Post

You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
With a brick headed straight at it!
I find it hard to describe the feeling I get when you say things like this.
It's a combination of awe, revulsion, confusion, and an overwhelming urge to eat my own head to make the pain go away.
The way you write this awkward nonsensical addition as if it's some subtle metaphor or inside joke. And then that exclamation mark, which makes it that much more needy and sycophantic. I imagine you made a sound like "hurr hurr hurr" while you wrote it.
It's brilliant in it's sheer defiant idiocy.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:59 AM   #1719876  /  #884
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Originally Posted by humber View Post


If the project were of genuine interest, it would receive a lot of comments. From more than 2800 views, the cart has garnered two comments.
Let me guess:
1) Some ringer comes along who just doesn’t “get it”, despite claiming to know some physics.

2) Spork, or another cart clown, tells the ringer it is Ok to be skeptical, after all it is all very non-intuitive and all.

3) The ringer finds some new information somewhere, and something starts to click, or the penny drops, and he can almost, but not quite “get it”.

4) Another cart clown weighs in, and tells how big a skeptic he was until he finally “got” the treadmill test was an actual, honest to God, real as life, instance of a cart going ddwfttw, honest injun!

5) The ringer “gets it”! Another soul is saved by the Church of ddwfttw and all rejoice for pastor spork. Amen.
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Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.
Sporky: The joke is not on me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:01 AM   #1719877  /  #885
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Originally Posted by H'ethetheth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by humber View Post

You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
With a brick headed straight at it!
I find it hard to describe the feeling I get when you say things like this.
It's a combination of awe, revulsion, confusion, and an overwhelming urge to eat my own head to make the pain go away.
The way you write this awkward nonsensical addition as if it's some subtle metaphor or inside joke. And then that exclamation mark, which makes it that much more needy and sycophantic. I imagine you made a sound like "hurr hurr hurr" while you wrote it.
It's brilliant in it's sheer defiant idiocy.
I really appreciate your awe and reverence and all, but I'm not looking for any followers, sorry. Better get on back to following sporky around, you know how jealous he gets!
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Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.
Sporky: The joke is not on me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:12 AM   #1719880  /  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H'ethetheth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by humber View Post

You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
With a brick headed straight at it!
I find it hard to describe the feeling I get when you say things like this.
It's a combination of awe, revulsion, confusion, and an overwhelming urge to eat my own head to make the pain go away.
The way you write this awkward nonsensical addition as if it's some subtle metaphor or inside joke. And then that exclamation mark, which makes it that much more needy and sycophantic. I imagine you made a sound like "hurr hurr hurr" while you wrote it.
It's brilliant in it's sheer defiant idiocy.
I really appreciate your awe and reverence and all, but I'm not looking for any followers, sorry. Better get on back to following sporky around, you know how jealous he gets!
Funny that that should be the word you got from it. It must be pretty awesome to be you.
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:17 AM   #1719881  /  #887
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Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
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Originally Posted by H'ethetheth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by humber View Post

You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
With a brick headed straight at it!
I find it hard to describe the feeling I get when you say things like this.
It's a combination of awe, revulsion, confusion, and an overwhelming urge to eat my own head to make the pain go away.
The way you write this awkward nonsensical addition as if it's some subtle metaphor or inside joke. And then that exclamation mark, which makes it that much more needy and sycophantic. I imagine you made a sound like "hurr hurr hurr" while you wrote it.
It's brilliant in it's sheer defiant idiocy.
I really appreciate your awe and reverence and all, but I'm not looking for any followers, sorry. Better get on back to following sporky around, you know how jealous he gets!
Funny that that should be the word you got from it. It must be pretty awesome to be you.
Now you're trying too hard. Shoooo fly, shoooo! I'm not interested! Get on back to sporky, ya hear?
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Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.
Sporky: The joke is not on me.
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:27 AM   #1719889  /  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by humber View Post


If the project were of genuine interest, it would receive a lot of comments. From more than 2800 views, the cart has garnered two comments.
Let me guess:
1) Some ringer comes along who just doesn’t “get it”, despite claiming to know some physics.

2) Spork, or another cart clown, tells the ringer it is Ok to be skeptical, after all it is all very non-intuitive and all.

3) The ringer finds some new information somewhere, and something starts to click, or the penny drops, and he can almost, but not quite “get it”.

4) Another cart clown weighs in, and tells how big a skeptic he was until he finally “got” the treadmill test was an actual, honest to God, real as life, instance of a cart going ddwfttw, honest injun!

5) The ringer “gets it”! Another soul is saved by the Church of ddwfttw and all rejoice for pastor spork. Amen.
The comments were one skeptical, and the other, supportive. The other 3 comments were from Spork, replying, much as you suggested. The number of views, of course, can be easily generated.

The intention and spirit of that competition is quite clear. Spork knowingly entered a concept and design that is certainly not his. I doubt that such a person can be relied upon to honestly handle his own trial data, or not to take advantage of the circumstances that provided so many opportunities to force the desired outcome. It is patently dishonest to exploit a transient 5mph fall in windspeed, in order to gain a higher WS ratio. He can't deny he did that.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:34 AM   #1719890  /  #889
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Originally Posted by H'ethetheth View Post
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Originally Posted by yevgheni View Post
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You're an intellectual lightweight, with his face pressed up against the window of science.
With a brick headed straight at it!
I find it hard to describe the feeling I get when you say things like this.
..and now, you prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H'ethetheth View Post
It's a combination of awe, revulsion, confusion, and an overwhelming urge to eat my own head to make the pain go away.
The way you write this awkward nonsensical addition as if it's some subtle metaphor or inside joke. And then that exclamation mark, which makes it that much more needy and sycophantic. I imagine you made a sound like "hurr hurr hurr" while you wrote it.
It's brilliant in it's sheer defiant idiocy.
When the CV is stationary, the vane reads the true wind direction, but when underway, the apparent wind will change that. When the true wind is calculated, the deviation will be less than indicated by the vane itself. But, wouldn't you expect the rate of change to remain unaffected? And then, if the vehicle is accelerating, ( so increasing the force on the vane), and the wind has a constant trend, but without any steady periods to use as a yardstick, how would you separate the two effects?
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #1719897  /  #890
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... it just seems so unlikely Paul could have missed the mark to that extent in constructing his cart. ...

... it just seems implausible such an experienced model builder could have been so far off the mark.]
All that "experience", and yet he couldn't keep from placing the propeller on the shaft exactly fucking backwards. I wonder if that had any impact?

There are a few ways to do it right and a million to screw it up.

JB
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:36 AM   #1719909  /  #891
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... it just seems so unlikely Paul could have missed the mark to that extent in constructing his cart. ...

... it just seems implausible such an experienced model builder could have been so far off the mark.]
All that "experience", and yet he couldn't keep from placing the propeller on the shaft exactly fucking backwards. I wonder if that had any impact?

There are a few ways to do it right and a million to screw it up.

JB
You failed to notice that one of the props is a "pusher" and the drive has two gear sets, resulting in the correct rotation for that prop.
The cart posted by RP, has two crown gears, and so the pinion can be engaged to change the rotation as suited, or for the purposes of experiment, as befits the task. Dickhead
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:43 AM   #1719912  /  #892
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You failed to notice that one of the props is a "pusher" and the drive has two gear sets, resulting in the correct rotation for that prop.
It had nothing to do with "rotation" Humbass -- it had everything to do with the direction of the airflow through the propeller.

He had the rear of the pusher propeller installation facing forwards and it matters not in that case which way you spin it, it's performance is going to flat suck.

Go ahead and tell a A&P inspector that it doesn't matter which side of a Cessna propeller goes to the front and watch him laugh (then watch the pilot die as he can't get off the runway in time)

JB
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:11 PM   #1719921  /  #893
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I wonder if the hidiots registered just so that they could vote against the cart on that site? I have not registered so I don't know how difficult it would be or how vigilant they are against people registering several times from one computer, but I would not put it past either Harold or humber to try to do this.
That would be similar to sending copies of humber’s posts to your brother at physics forum, to discredit him and get him banned. Only a slime ball would even think of doing something like that!

Oh, very nice animations. You got any for faster than light?
Yes, that would be a terrible thing to do. It is a good thing I did not do that. All I did was warn them that their site had a humber infestation. I did not even need to warn them about your nonsense. I missed it when you were on their but you still managed to get yourself banned. Now how did that happen?

And the animations are based on the raw data from NALSA. You know, the event where they had experts to make sure no funny business was going on. You don't think that Richard Jenkins, who has a record from this group, would not be the first to cry foul if there was some funny business going on? The ultimate claim for the record book was almost three times wind speed DDW. Are you trying to claim that a group of experienced land sailers would not know when a vehicle was going directly downwind?

Your claims are getting wilder and wilder Harold.

Last edited by Subduction Zone; 02-27-2012 at 12:19 PM. Reason: punctuation
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:28 PM   #1719928  /  #894
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When the CV is stationary, the vane reads the true wind direction, but when underway, the apparent wind will change that. When the true wind is calculated, the deviation will be less than indicated by the vane itself. But, wouldn't you expect the rate of change to remain unaffected?
Why, no, I wouldn't.

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And then, if the vehicle is accelerating, ( so increasing the force on the vane), and the wind has a constant trend, but without any steady periods to use as a yardstick, how would you separate the two effects?
That would be vector addition.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:31 PM   #1719929  /  #895
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You failed to notice that one of the props is a "pusher" and the drive has two gear sets, resulting in the correct rotation for that prop.
It had nothing to do with "rotation" Humbass -- it had everything to do with the direction of the airflow through the propeller.

He had the rear of the pusher propeller installation facing forwards and it matters not in that case which way you spin it, it's performance is going to flat suck.
Errr...no. Your video, prop or turbine, shows that a prop makes a good turbine. It's not a matter of "airflow"....
but who cares what dumb ideas you retain?

All types were tried. A tailwind driving a turbine, sails without gearing and the prop cart. The latter did not make it past stage one.
Your wind cart video shows why, when the props stalls, the wheels slide, and the cart travels 5mph, when a leaf travels 20mph.


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Go ahead and tell a A&P inspector that it doesn't matter which side of a Cessna propeller goes to the front and watch him laugh (then watch the pilot die as he can't get off the runway in time)
JB
That's because they all produce thrust, when driven by an engine. They are not driven by the wind.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:35 PM   #1719932  /  #896
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humber, are you now trying to claim that the propeller on the Blackbird does not produce thrust!?
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:45 PM   #1719937  /  #897
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I remember when the explanation used to be latch and feedback. Although what it means was never explained

Also, the TM cart worked because people were "tinkering and fiddling" with it
We actually figured out where this nonsense came from. Yev was quoting one of his web pages that he would never reference so I googled it and found the article he was using for the quote. I proceeded to read the article and found a reference in it to electronic "flip-flops" The following may not have been the one referenced earlier but it has the same elements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback_loop

Yev made this bizarre and random connection when the article was discussing feedback in electronic flip flops. A flip flop uses a particular connection of feedback from its output to "remember" what was put into its input when the other input strobes it in. Since it "latches" the input in and holds it as a memory element, we call a flip flop in this configuration a "latch". Yev had no clue how it applied to the cart but since it had words about "feedback" and "latched" states, he, as usual, made this nebulous reference to actually have some applicability to the cart. It is very similar to how he is using the words about "angular velocity" of the TM belt and think it couples into the carts angular momentum somehow. Since he doesn't seem to understand what he's actually reading, he just connects the same words into a nonsense explanation.

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Old 02-27-2012, 12:54 PM   #1719940  /  #898
humber
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When the CV is stationary, the vane reads the true wind direction, but when underway, the apparent wind will change that. When the true wind is calculated, the deviation will be less than indicated by the vane itself. But, wouldn't you expect the rate of change to remain unaffected?
Why, no, I wouldn't.
Then you should. If the true wind, as measured from a stationary vane changes 20 degrees in 20 seconds ( which it does) then then the true wind derived from the moving vane, should also show 20 degrees over 20 seconds. The rate of change is independent of any absolute measurement or offset.

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And then, if the vehicle is accelerating, ( so increasing the force on the vane), and the wind has a constant trend, but without any steady periods to use as a yardstick, how would you separate the two effects?
That would be vector addition.
Oh, well done. How about something that is not so glib? How would you calculate the numerical result?
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:16 PM   #1719950  /  #899
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Then you should. If the true wind, as measured from a stationary vane changes 20 degrees in 20 seconds ( which it does) then then the true wind derived from the moving vane, should also show 20 degrees over 20 seconds. The rate of change is independent of any absolute measurement or offset.
Major fail humber. Perhaps almost as huge as "the acceleration of a ball at the top of its arc is zero".

Care to try again?
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:17 PM   #1719951  /  #900
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I remember when the explanation used to be latch and feedback. Although what it means was never explained

Also, the TM cart worked because people were "tinkering and fiddling" with it
We actually figured out where this nonsense came from. Yev was quoting one of his web pages that he would never reference so I googled it and found the article he was using for the quote. I proceeded to read the article and found a reference in it to electronic "flip-flops" The following may not have been the one referenced earlier but it has the same elements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback_loop

Yev made this bizarre and random connection when the article was discussing feedback in electronic flip flops. A flip flop uses a particular connection of feedback from its output to "remember" what was put into its input when the other input strobes it in.
Well, well. Your understanding is appalling.

"Digital" flip-flops, are analogue amplifiers. The open-loop gain, of say, an R-S latch is very large. That, transistor thresholds and saturation limits, allow for the final latching states. CMOS inverters can be biased so they operate linearly. They are little more than a totem-pole driver.

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Since it "latches" the input in and holds it as a memory element, we call a flip flop in this configuration a "latch". Yev had no clue how it applied to the cart but since it had words about "feedback" and "latched" states, he, as usual, made this nebulous reference to actually have some applicability to the cart. It is very similar to how he is using the words about "angular velocity" of the TM belt and think it couples into the carts angular momentum somehow. Since he doesn't seem to understand what he's actually reading, he just connects the same words into a nonsense explanation.
Again, you show your ignorance. Not all latches have significant hysteresis, EE windgrins, and feedback can change the characteristics of a system, and not just to saturate it, but to produce a particular mode of operation that is self-sustaining beyond some given threshold.
The cart must be primed to a minimum speed before it can stay on the belt. Then, the cart sustains that mode by feedback...but, you have trouble with a ball, so that part will be too much for you.

The reason for the tinkering, is to provide the conditions for that latched state to exist. A consequence is low friction to the belt, and so instability. All the carts are unstable. "Donkeypuss" who built a cart like Goodman's used guides to keep the cart stable, and Zella, the student, used strings for the same purpose.

The carts slide around, and can be pushed across the belt, as easily as along it.
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humber: "But, the direct consequence of both arguments is that the available power at windspeed is zero, so WS can never be reached"
JDuffy: "I am thinking I will put this in my signature. Is this an accurate summary Humber?"
'an upwind turbine cart traveling at WS has zero power available'

Last edited by humber; 02-27-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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