An Atheist contemplates his own mortality

ninewands · 08-06-2008, 02:02 AM

ETA: I was going to keep this private until I had more information, but I decided "Fuck it, the Rats are my friends."

I'm going to die, but then we all are. Unfortunately, in my case it will probably be sooner rather than later. Allow me to explain.

A 4 cm mass was detected in the upper lobe of my left lung by a CT scan. In addition to the mass I have fairly extensive enlargement of the lymph nodes in my shoulders and the base of my neck. The CT scan also detected a cyst in the right lobe of my liver. A biopsy of one of the lymph nodes in my shoulder came back with a diagnosis of undifferentiated adenocarcinoma consistent with a primary tumor in the lung. In short, I have lung cancer and it's fairly advanced. I don't know anything at this time about the cyst in my liver. My pulmonologist hasn't said anything about staging, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is stage IIIb, or even stage IV.

I guess if there's any place in the world where it's good to be in my situation I must be there. I'll be treated at the University of Texas's M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, which is currently ranked No. 1 in the US by US News & World Report, but even with care that good available, it still sucks to have cancer. And, even at Anderson, my probability of surviving five years is about 6%. That means I have to out-live fifteen other folks to get to age 63. Talk about playing "Last Man Standing!"

I'm not afraid of being dead. There is no God to judge me, no heaven, and no hell, there is only the cessation of existence. That's not anything to be afraid of. In fact, if things come out badly with my treatment, death will probably be a relief. What I do fear is the process of dying, especially from lung cancer. I've always wanted my death to come quickly, without debilitating sickness and without a great deal of pain. It seems that's probably not in the cards for me now.

The other thing that sucks is that I probably won't live long enough to retire. I really hate the thought of the state of Texas and the Social Security Administration getting to skate on my pensions after all these years working. That seems sort of unfair to me.

It will probably be two weeks before I can get into Anderson to start treatment. Delays are extremely frustrating because I feel almost like time is running out on me. I want to get on with it. Emotionally, I alternate between being very irritable and being overwhelmingly sad. I guess the worst part of the whole thing is not knowing what's going to happen. From what I've read about it, living through chemo and radiation as a first-line cancer treatment is really hell on earth.

My life has become almost a constant struggle to hold onto hope, but struggle I must, because hope is the only thing that will enable me to beat this disease.

I'm trying really hard not to let this degenerate into a whining "pity party" but it is difficult. I'm also trying very hard not to beat myself up too much for not being smart enough to quit smoking 30 or so years ago. That is a state of mind that is very easy to slip into, and one that is toxic. Allowing myself to dwell on the fact that I really do deserve this is a sure-fire way to lose hope. I have to force myself to focus on "Play the hand you're dealt," and "treasure each moment as if it were the last, because one of them, one day, WILL be the last."

BioBeing · 08-06-2008, 02:40 AM

Sorry, ninewands. The thought of the cessation of life really is enough to put a downer on anyone's day.

On the bright side, Anderson is the best place to be if you have to be any place like that. Good luck and best wishes!

hecaterin · 08-06-2008, 02:42 AM

Fuck, that's bad news. Best wishes, and remember the median is not the message.

BTW, can't you take early retirement at 55?

ravenok · 08-06-2008, 02:49 AM

Damn.

I'm really glad you live in a place where you can get decent medical treatment. And I second looking into early retirement.

Lanakila · 08-06-2008, 02:55 AM

Wow Ninewands. It's hard to know what to say to something like this. Good luck in your treatment and I hope your pain isn't too severe.

Worldtraveller · 08-06-2008, 03:14 AM

Earliest retirement I'm aware of is at 62 (50% SS).

We ain't much, 9w, but we're here for ya. I've had several family members go through different types of cancer and treatments. It's improved hugely in the last few years. We're all pullin' for ya.

And I for one, am sincerely honored that you consider us here your friends.

Cheers buddy.

Danby · 08-06-2008, 03:36 AM

:

From what I've read about it, living through chemo and radiation as a first-line cancer treatment is really hell on earth.

I have several people close to me who have gone through it successfully. They survived it. It can be done. There is your hope.

:

I'm trying really hard not to let this degenerate into a whining "pity party" but it is difficult.

Don't worry abut that. Denial isn't any healthier than wallowing. Your friends will let you know if, you get too whiny.

When the time comes if, you need hair, let me know. I'll send you my ponytail.

Best of luck.

Octavia · 08-06-2008, 03:48 AM

I know you've heard this from me before, ninewands, but I really am sorry. Still, 15 other people... you can do it!

I am glad that you've decided to share, though - it will give you that much more support.

Big *HUGS* as I know you need them now.

Cygnus · 08-06-2008, 05:49 AM

Best wishes from someone who doesn't really know you.

We're in your corner pulling for you.

Cygnus

DMB · 08-06-2008, 06:27 AM

Dear ninewands, you're someone I really respect and I think it takes guts to share this with us.

We'll all be thinking of you and hoping for you.

I know exactly what you mean about the difference between being dead and dying. I am about 10 years older than you and have got to a stage where death would not be unwelcome, but I still want the process to be as easy as possible.

Anyway, this is just to say, keep fighting it. We'd like you to stick around!

Arctish · 08-06-2008, 08:14 AM

I can only imagine what it's like to be confronted with your own mortality in such stark terms, ninewands. Please let us know what we can do to help.

Would you mind sharing what the earliest symptoms were? I quit smoking only after I hit my mid-forties and I have a sister who still smokes. There are probably some older smokers here who could use a head's-up.

Ray Moscow · 08-06-2008, 08:27 AM

That just sucks. I do admire the way you're facing up to what is probably a grim reality and making the best of it.

I hope your treatment goes well and that you're around to enjoy more time with your loved ones.

dug_down_deep · 08-06-2008, 10:54 AM

Okay, you win a prize of some kind. I think that's the first time I've ever read anything on the internet and actually shed tears. Congratulations for that.

Hey, my stepmother was in stage 3, I think, ovarian cancer. And now she's totally clean. People said ovarian is one of the worst, and she appears to have beat it, at least for awhile. So you may be resigned to your fate (I think I would be), but you might want to allow yourself to hope for and expect a better deal than the one the statistics are telling you about. It's up to you, of course, but the possibility is definitely there that things might be better than that.

These fucking cigarettes.

ninewands · 08-06-2008, 12:46 PM

:

I can only imagine what it's like to be confronted with your own mortality in such stark terms, ninewands. Please let us know what we can do to help.

Would you mind sharing what the earliest symptoms were?

The bad thing about lung cancer is that it's so deep in the body that there really aren't any early symptoms. My advice would be that if you have ANY symptoms of emphysema (shortness of breath, wheezing) or chronic bronchitis (mostly persistent coughing), then you need to get your Doctor to order up a CT scan on a regular (say annual) basis. M.D. Anderson does not recommend routine screening for lung cancer because their opinion is it is not cost-effective like, say, screening for breast cancer or prostate cancer is, but catching this stuff a LOT earlier than I did makes a HUGE difference in survival rates.

:

I quit smoking only after I hit my mid-forties and I have a sister who still smokes. There are probably some older smokers here who could use a head's-up.

Anybody out there who is still smoking, listen up. "QUIT! NOW!"

ETA: If you smoke a pack a day, a month's dosage of Chantix costs less than a month's supply of cigarettes.

ninewands · 08-06-2008, 01:09 PM

:

So you may be resigned to your fate (I think I would be), but you might want to allow yourself to hope for and expect a better deal than the one the statistics are telling you about.

Resigned to my fate is not the same as surrendered to the disease. I have to give up to be the latter.

:

It's up to you, of course, but the possibility is definitely there that things might be better than that.

These fucking cigarettes.

Matty · 08-06-2008, 01:25 PM

shit 9w, that just cut me up. so sorry to hear that.

you might not be in the right place for it legally speaking, but medical marijuana and its derivatives are renowned for lessening the side effects of chemo and radio therapy, and you are in the one of the best places in the word for treatment.

:

The other thing that sucks is that I probably won't live long enough to retire. I really hate the thought of the state of Texas and the Social Security Administration getting to skate on my pensions after all these years working. That seems sort of unfair to me.

I can see that.

no atheists in the face of your own mortality, eh.
you just proved that's bollocks and all the more respect to you for it.

Ray Moscow · 08-06-2008, 01:35 PM

:

Anybody out there who is still smoking, listen up. "QUIT! NOW!"

ETA: If you smoke a pack a day, a month's dosage of Chantix costs less than a month's supply of cigarettes.

People get cancer who never smoked, too, so this is not necessarily "your fault".

My late BIL never smoked regularly and got cancer anyway (they never quite found where it originated, but it was probably his lung).

But your advice about quitting is of course right.

Heart disease is the big killer in my family (which is partly why I work out all the time). I'm already older than my dad was when he died.

yeshi · 08-06-2008, 01:39 PM

just few days ago on BBC:

An injection of a high dose of vitamin C may be able to hold back the advance of cancers, US scientists claim.

up to 50% tumors reduction specially for limphoma etc.

===

Otherwise, i hope not to offend you in these ominous times - as you said we are all going to have to go this same road one day, and some of us will not even be aware enough to prepare for it etc.

But i know when my time comes, i will try keep up the best most broad and inspired state of mind i can muster and get to accept and embrace all there is or was. If there is any chance that there is a next moment of experiencing anywhere in the future, it will be based on the last previous state, and therefore it should be a good one.

its also somewhat probable that materialism/rational phyisicalism/atheism allows for a rebirth after the bodily demise: rebirth explained here, in another thread

again, i apologize, it is not my purpose to give hope or proselityze, it is only to share thoughts which might be helpful.

may all be auspicious!

SteveF · 08-06-2008, 03:10 PM

I have the occasional drunken ciggie. About time I stopped that.

Best wishes. Fight the fucker as hard as you can.

ninewands · 08-06-2008, 03:15 PM

:

just few days ago on BBC:

An injection of a high dose of vitamin C may be able to hold back the advance of cancers, US scientists claim.

up to 50% tumors reduction specially for limphoma etc.

One of the first websites I checked into after getting my diagnosis was the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State. This phenomenon is well known. Pauling used to argue that vitamin C would cure damn near anything, including cancer. It turns out that the dose he advocated (5-10 grams/day) actually helps tumors grow faster. One has to get very close to the LD50 for vitamin C in humans (100 g/day) to get any tumor suppressive effects. The way it works is you overload the body with so much vitamin C that it creates a form of malnutrition, which is definitely not good for cancer.

The dosage they used (4g/kg) in the study BBC reported is actually about 3 times the LD50 for vitamin C in humans. My dose, at that rate would be 320 grams. Don't think I really want to go there. Besides, it'll be at least ten years before anything like this can get through clinical trials and get approved by the FDA.

Thalia Thinks · 08-06-2008, 03:33 PM

I'm so sorry 9W.

Sharing your story is amazingly brave and not only helps you, it helps us too. I personally, felt a tiny bit of your pain through your words and can imagine that when my time comes I may feel this way too. I think it's a reminder to us all to live life to it's fullest.

Of course you know now that you've shared with us that we are all on this journey with you as much as we can be. We will cry with you, laugh with you, and if you describe it enough we may just puke with you when you come home from chemo treatments.

I'm wishing you the best in the recovery process. Something tells me you will fight this shit with all your might.

jess · 08-06-2008, 03:45 PM

I really don't know what to say that isn't a platitude from a stranger.

But I will tell you a chat I had with a neighbor. I haven't seen her in a while, and recently learned form her that 5 years ago she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She quit her job and sat around waiting to die.

She now regrets quitting her job and not taking that cruise and stopping living 1) because she's still alive long after her prognosis and 2) because she's spent the last 5 years basically dead already, when she wasn't.

I hope in five years, you talk about a great day at work and that cruise you went on.

Garnet · 08-06-2008, 06:27 PM

*hugs on Ninewands*

Gagundathar Inexplicable · 08-06-2008, 06:40 PM

Argh, 9W! What can I say that you haven't already heard from others here.

My darling bride was diagnosed with leukemia about 11 years ago now. She is being treated at MD Anderson (next visit is in September) and was one of the first group of experimental subjects (read: guinea pigs) to use Gleevec. Needless to say, she is still around and kicking. Attitude really is key to the whole thing. The chemo and radiation are going to suck a lot, but you are WAY too young to croak and life is better than the alternative (or so I have heard).

Also, it takes an amazing amount of guts to post what you did. Completely consistent with what I have observed from you through your post's content and style, but still remarkable.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. She-who-must-be-obeyed has always maintained that visualizing the destruction of the cancer cells in the body really works. I think this may be true, and I don't think it is something 'supernatural' though it is pretty mysterious. Of course, all of life is mysterious in a way and our discovery of it through living every moment is the best reason to strive for survival.

I think it is safe to say that we will all be here for you (or as much as a semi-anonymous set of virtual acquaintances can be).

Good luck!

SkepticTank · 08-06-2008, 06:43 PM

:

I'm not afraid of being dead. There is no God to judge me, no heaven, and no hell, there is only the cessation of existence. That's not anything to be afraid of. In fact, if things come out badly with my treatment, death will probably be a relief. What I do fear is the process of dying, especially from lung cancer. I've always wanted my death to come quickly, without debilitating sickness and without a great deal of pain. It seems that's probably not in the cards for me now.

I share your philosophical position here. I have no fear of death (it's inevitable and therefore pointless to fear it), but I do fear the painful agony of a shitty drawn out suffering leading to said death.

Sorry to hear about your situation, 9w. How is your family coping?

08-06-2008, 02:02 AM	#123605 / #1
ninewands Posts shocking inanity : Mar 2008 : A very small island of sanity in Southeast Texas : 2,432	An Atheist contemplates his own mortality *ETA:* I was going to keep this private until I had more information, but I decided "Fuck it, the Rats are my friends." I'm going to die, but then we all are. Unfortunately, in my case it will probably be sooner rather than later. Allow me to explain. A 4 cm mass was detected in the upper lobe of my left lung by a CT scan. In addition to the mass I have fairly extensive enlargement of the lymph nodes in my shoulders and the base of my neck. The CT scan also detected a cyst in the right lobe of my liver. A biopsy of one of the lymph nodes in my shoulder came back with a diagnosis of undifferentiated adenocarcinoma consistent with a primary tumor in the lung. In short, I have lung cancer and it's fairly advanced. I don't know anything at this time about the cyst in my liver. My pulmonologist hasn't said anything about staging, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is stage IIIb, or even stage IV. I guess if there's any place in the world where it's good to be in my situation I must be there. I'll be treated at the University of Texas's M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, which is currently ranked No. 1 in the US by US News & World Report, but even with care that good available, it still sucks to have cancer. And, even at Anderson, my probability of surviving five years is about 6%. That means I have to out-live fifteen other folks to get to age 63. Talk about playing "Last Man Standing!" I'm not afraid of being dead. There is no God to judge me, no heaven, and no hell, there is only the cessation of existence. That's not anything to be afraid of. In fact, if things come out badly with my treatment, death will probably be a relief. What I do fear is the process of dying, especially from lung cancer. I've always wanted my death to come quickly, without debilitating sickness and without a great deal of pain. It seems that's probably not in the cards for me now. The other thing that sucks is that I probably won't live long enough to retire. I really hate the thought of the state of Texas and the Social Security Administration getting to skate on my pensions after all these years working. That seems sort of unfair to me. It will probably be two weeks before I can get into Anderson to start treatment. Delays are extremely frustrating because I feel almost like time is running out on me. I want to get on with it. Emotionally, I alternate between being very irritable and being overwhelmingly sad. I guess the worst part of the whole thing is not knowing what's going to happen. From what I've read about it, living through chemo and radiation as a first-line cancer treatment is really hell on earth. My life has become almost a constant struggle to hold onto hope, but struggle I must, because hope is the only thing that will enable me to beat this disease. I'm trying really hard not to let this degenerate into a whining "pity party" but it is difficult. I'm also trying very hard not to beat myself up too much for not being smart enough to quit smoking 30 or so years ago. That is a state of mind that is very easy to slip into, and one that is toxic. Allowing myself to dwell on the fact that I really do deserve this is a sure-fire way to lose hope. I have to force myself to focus on "Play the hand you're dealt," and "treasure each moment as if it were the last, because one of them, one day, WILL be the last." __________________ Life is but a game of sorts, and even the winners don't get out alive. -- recursive prophet Last edited by ninewands; 08-06-2008 at 02:06 AM.

08-06-2008, 10:54 AM	#123748 / #13
dug_down_deep bad trolls = good trolls : Mar 2008 : Solipsia : 8,421	Okay, you win a prize of some kind. I think that's the first time I've ever read anything on the internet and actually shed tears. Congratulations for that. Hey, my stepmother was in stage 3, I think, ovarian cancer. And now she's totally clean. People said ovarian is one of the worst, and she appears to have beat it, at least for awhile. So you may be resigned to your fate (I think I would be), but you might want to allow yourself to hope for and expect a better deal than the one the statistics are telling you about. It's up to you, of course, but the possibility is definitely there that things might be better than that. These fucking cigarettes. __________________ I actually like posting at both boards and I don't see why your childish behavior has to fuck things up for everybody.-Pavlov's Dog

08-06-2008, 03:45 PM	#123947 / #22
jess at the Cafe... : Mar 2008 : 4,687	I really don't know what to say that isn't a platitude from a stranger. But I will tell you a chat I had with a neighbor. I haven't seen her in a while, and recently learned form her that 5 years ago she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She quit her job and sat around waiting to die. She now regrets quitting her job and not taking that cruise and stopping living 1) because she's still alive long after her prognosis and 2) because she's spent the last 5 years basically dead already, when she wasn't. I hope in five years, you talk about a great day at work and that cruise you went on. __________________ The only thing to do is jump over the moon.

08-06-2008, 06:40 PM	#124087 / #24
Gagundathar Inexplicable Intolerant of Intolerance : Apr 2008 : On the surface of a tiny blue dot floating in Outer Space. : 9,687	Argh, 9W! What can I say that you haven't already heard from others here. My darling bride was diagnosed with leukemia about 11 years ago now. She is being treated at MD Anderson (next visit is in September) and was one of the first group of experimental subjects (read: guinea pigs) to use Gleevec. Needless to say, she is still around and kicking. Attitude really is key to the whole thing. The chemo and radiation are going to suck a lot, but you are WAY too young to croak and life is better than the alternative (or so I have heard). Also, it takes an amazing amount of guts to post what you did. Completely consistent with what I have observed from you through your post's content and style, but still remarkable. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. She-who-must-be-obeyed has always maintained that visualizing the destruction of the cancer cells in the body really works. I think this may be true, and I don't think it is something 'supernatural' though it is pretty mysterious. Of course, all of life is mysterious in a way and our discovery of it through living every moment is the best reason to strive for survival. I think it is safe to say that we will all be here for you (or as much as a semi-anonymous set of virtual acquaintances can be). Good luck! __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. -- Winston Churchill

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Messages:

08-06-2008, 02:40 AM	#123615 / #2
BioBeing Crackers! : Jun 2008 : Elvisland : 1,169	Sorry, ninewands. The thought of the cessation of life really is enough to put a downer on anyone's day. On the bright side, Anderson is the best place to be if you have to be any place like that. Good luck and best wishes!

08-06-2008, 02:42 AM	#123616 / #3
hecaterin Popcorn Fan : Mar 2008 : Canberra : 1,729	Fuck, that's bad news. Best wishes, and remember the median is not the message. BTW, can't you take early retirement at 55?

08-06-2008, 02:49 AM	#123618 / #4
ravenok trigger warning Into the West : Mar 2008 : Norton's Empire : 81,531	Damn. I'm really glad you live in a place where you can get decent medical treatment. And I second looking into early retirement.

08-06-2008, 02:55 AM	#123621 / #5
Lanakila Hussy : Mar 2008 : Western US : 8,989	Wow Ninewands. It's hard to know what to say to something like this. Good luck in your treatment and I hope your pain isn't too severe.

08-06-2008, 03:14 AM	#123627 / #6
Worldtraveller A fuzzy, winged spork. : Mar 2008 : Where the roadrunners roam. : 6,277	Earliest retirement I'm aware of is at 62 (50% SS). We ain't much, 9w, but we're here for ya. I've had several family members go through different types of cancer and treatments. It's improved hugely in the last few years. We're all pullin' for ya. And I for one, am sincerely honored that you consider us here your friends. Cheers buddy.

08-06-2008, 03:48 AM	#123640 / #8
Octavia Kiwi at the Nexus : Mar 2008 : 3,008	I know you've heard this from me before, ninewands, but I really am sorry. Still, 15 other people... you can do it! I am glad that you've decided to share, though - it will give you that much more support. Big HUGS as I know you need them now.

08-06-2008, 05:49 AM	#123659 / #9
Cygnus Junior Member : Mar 2008 : 28	Best wishes from someone who doesn't really know you. We're in your corner pulling for you. Cygnus

08-06-2008, 06:27 AM	#123668 / #10
DMB Old Git : Mar 2008 : Switzerland, UK or France : 3,770	Dear ninewands, you're someone I really respect and I think it takes guts to share this with us. We'll all be thinking of you and hoping for you. I know exactly what you mean about the difference between being dead and dying. I am about 10 years older than you and have got to a stage where death would not be unwelcome, but I still want the process to be as easy as possible. Anyway, this is just to say, keep fighting it. We'd like you to stick around!

08-06-2008, 08:14 AM	#123693 / #11
Arctish Centimillionaire : Mar 2008 : Alaska : 1,690	I can only imagine what it's like to be confronted with your own mortality in such stark terms, ninewands. Please let us know what we can do to help. Would you mind sharing what the earliest symptoms were? I quit smoking only after I hit my mid-forties and I have a sister who still smokes. There are probably some older smokers here who could use a head's-up.

08-06-2008, 08:27 AM	#123694 / #12
Ray Moscow Aspiring to humanity : Mar 2008 : Surrey, England : 5,144	That just sucks. I do admire the way you're facing up to what is probably a grim reality and making the best of it. I hope your treatment goes well and that you're around to enjoy more time with your loved ones.

08-06-2008, 01:39 PM	#123821 / #18
yeshi Samsara skipper : May 2008 : Munich : 1,342	just few days ago on BBC: An injection of a high dose of vitamin C may be able to hold back the advance of cancers, US scientists claim. up to 50% tumors reduction specially for limphoma etc. === Otherwise, i hope not to offend you in these ominous times - as you said we are all going to have to go this same road one day, and some of us will not even be aware enough to prepare for it etc. But i know when my time comes, i will try keep up the best most broad and inspired state of mind i can muster and get to accept and embrace all there is or was. If there is any chance that there is a next moment of experiencing anywhere in the future, it will be based on the last previous state, and therefore it should be a good one. its also somewhat probable that materialism/rational phyisicalism/atheism allows for a rebirth after the bodily demise: rebirth explained here, in another thread again, i apologize, it is not my purpose to give hope or proselityze, it is only to share thoughts which might be helpful. may all be auspicious!

08-06-2008, 03:10 PM	#123919 / #19
SteveF Pleistocene person : Mar 2008 : London, UK. : 27,270	I have the occasional drunken ciggie. About time I stopped that. Best wishes. Fight the fucker as hard as you can.

08-06-2008, 03:33 PM	#123933 / #21
Thalia Thinks A polar bear agnostic : Mar 2008 : 1,017	I'm so sorry 9W. Sharing your story is amazingly brave and not only helps you, it helps us too. I personally, felt a tiny bit of your pain through your words and can imagine that when my time comes I may feel this way too. I think it's a reminder to us all to live life to it's fullest. Of course you know now that you've shared with us that we are all on this journey with you as much as we can be. We will cry with you, laugh with you, and if you describe it enough we may just puke with you when you come home from chemo treatments. I'm wishing you the best in the recovery process. Something tells me you will fight this shit with all your might.

08-06-2008, 06:27 PM	#124083 / #23
Garnet Senior Member : Mar 2008 : Lansing, MI : 3,206	hugs on Ninewands